TSG 277 After Actions

[vadalaz]

In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please attach your final savefile, state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game.

Quick links: Announcement thread | Opening actions

- In what order did you capture the AI capitals? Who was the toughest foe?
- Were Carthaginian unique abilities useful to you?
- Did you mostly use a navy, a land army, or a combination of the two?
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?

 

[Megalou]

T129 victory - I would like to try again with just a horde of quinqueremes, no galleasses at all.

- In what order did you capture the AI capitals? Who was the toughest foe?
1. Iroquos - had the best wonders, no friendship, two luxuries
2. China en route to Japan.
3. Vienna
4-5. Maya and Japan on the same turn.
- Were Carthaginian unique abilities useful to you?
Actually, yes, I used them quite a lot to attack citites, not just for the final capture. They also generated loads of culture from sinking innumerable barb galleys and triremes.

- Did you mostly use a navy, a land army, or a combination of the two?
Navy only. The only land "army" I ever had was two warriors. One was used to farm culture from barbs on the home island, the other chased after an Iroquois worker to make him improve the Onondaga sugar.

- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?
3. Settled in place, then on the southern silver then on the dyes. There were happiness issues. It was a bugger to have to research masonry just to improve the marble for happiness. I also built a circus in Carthage after buying the horse tile. Freeing a Singaporean worker from Iroquois slavery put an end to the happiness issue.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Turn 151 Domination Victory!

- In what order did you capture the AI capitals? Who was the toughest foe? Kyoto, Vienna, Onondaga, Beijing, Palenque. DOW Pacal before Wu, but took longer to get Palenque.
- Were Carthaginian unique abilities useful to you? Free harbors obviously useful. Quinqueremes useful too.
- Did you mostly use a navy, a land army, or a combination of the two? Navy
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them? Two expansions (western dyes and southern silver/marble) + eight puppets (including final capital, not including the only city I razed)

I had no idea how easy cities would fall. Odo was the first conquest (useful wonders), but I left him with a city and accepted peace too soon. Was going to go directly to Beijing from there, most of the navy was border blocked.

Premature Peace:

Spoiler :

So, I sent those units east for Maria and Pacal (reinforced by one more galleass to replace the one left behind. That one joined the second navy to take out Hiawatha and Wu. The second navy had no problems, Pacal had an expansion that made it tough (shallow water zone of control). Ended up sacrificing a quinquereme to get galleasses in position.

No National College. Was two or three turns away from Oxford for Navigation. Ultra-important religion founded on Turn 144 (initiation rites, religious community). Didn't quite speed up oxford enough, though.

Military Tradition did not help as intended (nothing reached logistics). Exploration was very useful though. Final policy I took was the free admiral, and it was well timed. I had just captured Beijing giving a port to get my first admiral to Tikal (the Mayan expansion that caused the problem). Used the that admiral to heal the fleet - same turn I unlocked the free exploration admiral to help finish Palenque.

Palenque Falls:

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

T167 DOM

Yeah, these dates are not surprising me. I've not been a big naval warfare dude, so I did not know what to expect. In hindsight, I see now that Q swarm could do the trick in this game. Instead, I focus more on my empire and science early while beelining Galls. So I did not get the war machine going until well after t100, and was not totally sure if the 2 other unmet AIs, at the time, were accessible without Astro. They were, although it woulda been a long trek.

Once I did get things going, it was smooth sailing. Japan, the Iroquois, and China fell super easily and fast. Just the movement of ships and upgrades slowed things down at all, but money was not a big issue. Vienna and Pal fell in like 2 turns once I finally got over there.

Disappointed in my date, but felt I managed things okay, given my initial plan. The game was very fun. I enjoyed the naval combat and will play around with it more on my own.

Dido UA is really nice with the Harbors. I never generated a great general, but it was irrelevant.

Spoiler Pics :

 

[Rhodro]

T144 win.

capitals fell on: t108 vienna, t127 maya, t144 china.
I found maya pretty soon while sailing to vienna, but sadly i explored every possible coastal route except south of singapore, even though i had multiple quinrereme exploring.
Obviously if i knew china was there, i would have capped her after iroquois or japan. Then it would have probably been a T130+ win.

I also really focussed on crossbows (upgraded them all at vienna), but the 17 strength AI capitals really didn't need it. Going for compass and then Astronomy to make swimming faster would have been better. (Swimming embarked units around was absolutely painful to the east of japan, around sofia, and then back for china).
I did break my 7 crossbow army into 4 going to pacal and 3 back to sofia, when i didn't know china's exact location yet, but i guess it had to be there in that fog of war blob i still had. If i didn't make that decision it would have been an even slower finish time.

- Were Carthaginian unique abilities useful to you?
Quinrereme were very strong against barb galleys, which can cause quite a lot of trouble. The free harbors are a nice bonus. I think the science from connected cities pantheon would have been best this game (i had god king) to speed up compass for example.

Spoiler :

 

[ForkOfSpite]

I think the science from connected cities pantheon would have been best this game (i had god king) to speed up compass for example.

Hadn't considered that. I selected the wonders pantheon on Turn 58 - took a screenshot, and my science was only +11 at the time. Wish I had made a save so I could test if Wheel would be required for the science boost. Even if it is, would certainly have been beneficial to build a shrine (especially after +8 faith for finding Lhasa first) and get the three required techs.

Like the idea enough to play this map again. Won't be a fair comparison of course, but I'll do the same strategy. Compass rush, Tradition/Honor/Exploration, Great Library and Oracle, no National College, avoid the worker steal from Lhasa even though it would have been a huge help in my first run. Main comparison will be the time to Compass (Turn 98 in first run).

Addendum:
Started - restarted several times to replicate my scouting (to get the same ruins - gold, barb camps, spearman). Changed initial build order to add the shrine (scout, monument, shrine, worker, settler, settler). Got the pantheon on Turn 25 and verified that it didn't help science until I researched Wheel. Surprised it gave the capital +2 science as well as the two expansions.

However, I'm less inclined to see it out. Trying to force the same early game approach isn't working due to timing on the three additional techs (Turn 60 and I haven't started on the Great Library or expansion libraries). Since Wheel isn't necessary for the gold benefit of city connections with Dido, I'm not convinced the science pantheon is worth the detour. With only two expansions, it would take 10 turns to make up the science on a small map without meeting any AIs that know the tech. It would take 22 turns to make up for all three techs.

If it's already part of the tech path though (or ancient ruined), then it's an excellent choice - 40 turns with a free +6 science is more than 50% of Compass.

 

[FireFree3]

T142 Win

Captial Fall Sequence:
Iraq, China, Austria, Japan, Maya.

Japan was friendly most of the time, so, I got some money. Galleass is too powerful for prince. Happiness was a little bit of problems.

I settled 3 cities as most of us do.

 

[Rhodro]

With only two expansions, it would take 10 turns to make up the science on a small map without meeting any AIs that know the tech. It would take 22 turns to make up for all three techs.

If it's already part of the tech path though (or ancient ruined), then it's an excellent choice - 40 turns with a free +6 science is more than 50% of Compass.

I did another game and I can confirm that the science is only gained after the wheel.
Maybe if you consider the aquaducts tech being very important if you don't go full tradition, the wheel leads up to it and civil service.
But indeed if you're going for full focus compass you might get there faster by completely ignoring wheel, but you're economy is gonna be in a much worse shape without aquaducts and civil service. Possibly worth it?
My 2nd game i did full focus on quinrereme (7 units) and galleas (6 units) while still getting wheel. It ended on T121. Iroquis capital with quinrereme only and galleas came to help with japan, china, vienna and maya.

Maybe I will test a 3rd one by skipping wheel. What pantheon would you consider then for fast finish? Food from camps?

 

[zxcvbob]

Domination victory on turn 162. I thought Astronomy was going to be necessary to reach the last 2 civs, but I managed to find the passage and was able to take them out with galleasses and q'remes. I played peacefully (built Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Colossus, and Oracle) until I researched Compass. My free tech from GL was Iron Working because I thought I might need some swordsmen, and also its on the path to workshops.

Japan was first to fall, and then China. Next were Austria and the Iroquois (at the same time but Vienna fell first), and last was the Maya. I sent 2 highly-upgraded galleasses, 2 quinqueremes, and a great admiral to Vienna and Palenque, and 3 less experienced galleasses and a quinquereme to Onondaga because that was close enough to home I could send reinforcements if they got in trouble.

At the end I had 10 cities; all of them puppets except Carthage and Utique. I probably should have annexed Kyoto but I hadn't gotten around to that. Kyoto can build Machu Picchu.

The free harbors were awesome, and quinqueremes were good. Mountaineering was useless. I should have built a forest elephant just because "Hey, an elephant!", but I don't think I built any land units except one scout; not even an archer. I did get a horseman gifted to me by a city-state, which was handy because it showed up near Beijing and it took out an annoying barb camp.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

But indeed if you're going for full focus compass you might get there faster by completely ignoring wheel, but you're economy is gonna be in a much worse shape without aquaducts and civil service. Possibly worth it?

What pantheon would you consider then for fast finish? Food from camps?

My economy was fine, but use of gold is one of many reasons why my times can't compete with the top. In this particular game starting from my T100, I might have finished around 135 or so (rather than 151) if I had just picked an efficient war path. Even better if I had realized Military Tradition wouldn't be required (although maybe the quicker promotions helped even though nothing reached logistics) - could have put those two policies into Liberty for the worker. Not taking Lhasa's worker was also a mistake - especially after I already had a pantheon.

Pantheon for a fast finish? Seems like the most likely candidates all require something that might not fit in the approach. God of the sea requires fishing boats - that's probably the most "extra" since it'd be tough to make up the hammers put into the work boats. Food from camps require trapping and worker time to improve. Science from connections only requires Wheel, so of those three, that's the best IMO. More generally for a Dido game though (i.e., games where Wheel is researched naturally in a timely fashion), connection science looks like a strong choice if there's no faith pantheon. I had never considered that option.

For me, Great Library and Oracle were already part of the grand design (I took Aristocracy as my third social policy), so when I ended up with the fourth pantheon on Turn 58, I didn't even consider anything other that Ancient/Classical wonders production boost. No idea if that was the difference in me getting the Great Library (Turn 67). As for the Oracle, I intentionally delayed it a bit to make sure I was medieval before completion, so the pantheon only helped indirectly by allowing me to get other builds first (likely a quinquereme or two).

 

[zxcvbob]

For me, Great Library and Oracle were already part of the grand design (I took Aristocracy as my third social policy), so when I ended up with the fourth pantheon on Turn 58, I didn't even consider anything other that Ancient/Classical wonders production boost. No idea if that was the difference in me getting the Great Library (Turn 67). As for the Oracle, I intentionally delayed it a bit to make sure I was medieval before completion, so the pantheon only helped indirectly by allowing me to get other builds first (likely a quinquereme or two).

I also took Aristocracy early and my pantheon was God-King, because i wanted to build GL and GLH. It was tough for me to only build a few wonders and let the AIs build the rest for me, but those 2 and Oracle were pretty high priority. My one policy in Patronage was from finishing Oracle too soon before Exploration or Commerce unlocked, but I was afraid to delay it and maybe have one of the AIs snipe it. I only had 2 cities at that point and did not plan on settling any more myself, so I didn't want to take Legalism yet and waste 2 free culture buildings.

 

[sebtanic]

Turn 125 Domination

Time line:
t108 founded Religion: Initiation Rites, Peace Gardens (Pantheon: Rel. Idols -- should've taken exra food from camps since Gods of the Sea was already gone. Rel. Idols only gave me 1c1f since my religion never spread to my 2nd city)
t114 completed SoZ
t116 opened Exploration

I opened Honour after finishing Liberty, which was a mistake. I think Exploration was already available, and my fleets would have been faster if I had opened that first and ignored Honour. Culture from the few barbs I killed in the "late" game was negligible.

Anyway, getting exploration earlier would've only made me a few turns faster (if at all). I am very happy with my win time regardless.

I guess it's kind of intrinsic to Civ 5 that no matter how fast you are, you will always be thinking of things you could've done different to be even faster

Conquest:
I built two fleets of at least 3 Galleases and 2 Quinquis each. More ships were sent to reinforce them as I produced them in my 2 core cities. Never annexed anything, puppeted all capitals. Still was at -15 happiness at one point after taking Beijing (got better when I finished Razing the Maya's expo that was in the way to Palenque).

t106 Kyoto
t114 Onondaga (with 2nd fleet)
t115 Vienna
t122 Beijing (2nd fleet)
t125 Palenque

 

[sebtanic]

T142 Win

Captial Fall Sequence:
Iraq, China, Austria, Japan, Maya.

Iraq?

 

[Rhodro]

Maybe I will test a 3rd one by skipping wheel.

Did one last try, 3rd game. This one finished on T126. Beelined compass and only took mining as a side. The pantheon was 15% faster wonders.
Since this one is slower, I feel taking some basic techs like the wheel + science pantheon, trapping for the camps, animal husbandry for pastures, just sets you up better.
You might get compass a few turns later, but you have more production and food. This can also create a few quinrereme earlier. Using them to capture the first AI with gold from city attacks also gets you a bit more gold to purchase more galleas.
And the first AI is captured earlier that way too. So the galleas have 1 less capital they have to go to.

 

[sebtanic]

I had just captured Beijing giving a port to get my first admiral to Tikal

Wait, what? I never knew that admirals could travel between cities! Wow.

The only admiral I got took the long route to get to the war theater in China. When it arrived, Beijing had already fallen.

I guess I will never stop discovering new details in this game

EDIT:
I just replayed the last couple of turns and teleported the GA to Tikal. Lo and behold, this time I finished one turn earlier, taking Palenque turn 124!

 

[lymond]

Wait, what? I never knew that admirals could travel between cities! Wow.

The only admiral I got took the long route to get to the war theater in China. When it arrived, Beijing had already fallen.

I guess I will never stop discovering new details in this game.

EDIT:
I just replayed the last couple of turns and teleported the GA to Tikal. Lo and behold, this time I finished one turn earlier, taking Palenque turn 124!

Never knew this either..how ya do it?

 

[sebtanic]

Never knew this either..how ya do it?

When the GA is in a city, there is a button on the left hand side of the screen to send it to a different port.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

I feel taking some basic techs like the wheel + science pantheon, trapping for the camps, animal husbandry for pastures, just sets you up better.
You might get compass a few turns later, but you have more production and food. This can also create a few quinrereme earlier. Using them to capture the first AI with gold from city attacks also gets you a bit more gold to purchase more galleas.
And the first AI is captured earlier that way too. So the galleas have 1 less capital they have to go to.

Seems plausible - probable even.

Reflecting on my T135 estimate if I had taken a better war path, I think that border blocking myself might have actually sped up the win. After Japan, I was in position for China when I made the mistake, so then most of the first navy headed east toward Austria and the Maya. Second navy finished off the Iroquois and then China. Seems likely that's faster than the first navy finishing China and the Iroquois before heading east. Optimal path for a single navy is Iroquois, China, Japan, Austria, Maya, but given how easily cities fall, the split navy (Japan, Austria, Maya with first + Iroquois, China with second) is more optimal. But I still wasted some turns by having the first navy go south towards China before heading east.

 

[raider980]

T203 DomV, man I'm slow! I used a combo of land and navy which was a mistake. Looks like Galleasses were the way to go and I didn't go for them because I thought they'd take longer than a few CB +Quins. But trooping those units along the coastal waters takes forever. Plus for some reason I didn't find the route to Austria and Maya until way late.

Took the capitals: Japan, Iroquois, China, Austria, Maya. Kyoto was by far the hardest, it was on a hill and my one archer and Quins just weren't doing much damage to it. And the Quins would have to retreat after only one hit. Love the Quins but they do need some sort of ranged accompaniment. And the free harbors are awesome, no need to build roads. Only settled two cities and just captured the capitals until I got to the Maya who had cities in the way of getting to the capital.

 

[sebtanic]

I wonder if a quinqui-only rush is doable. It would be tough since you can attack most capitals only from 2 hexes before the city heals and fires back. And with Palenque it would probably be impossible since you would only be able to attack once per turn, meanwhile the AI will build walls and archers.

If I can spare some time I will give it a try one of these days!