Turn 3550 - New Hut

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Jayne's post led me back to Leowind's, which itself asked for more info.

by Leowind:
That means gaining a tech NOT on the path to Monarchy makes the techs we're actually researching take longer to get, which makes it take longer to get to Monarchy. Have I explained this correctly, those of you who should know?
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The thing that affects even more is the delay from tech 5 to tech 7, if we get a tech now that we have started BW. This is because not all advances are available for choice each turn (no direct tech, explained here ).

If a tech from a hut comes up and it is not Alp, CB, or CoL, then we're hosed, and could lose Colossus in Gems City (due to shield waste in Despotism), lose 50 to 100 gold (corruption, aka loss of trade arrows), not to mention slow science. So we really don't want a tech from the hut... if we get a tech, if is about 80% sure it will be worse than worthless (like Map Making, Horseback Riding, or Warrior Code... the computer loves to saddle the human with MM & HBR, in particular!). Anyway, These are the paths to 5-tech monarchy, and we are using either 2 or 3:

1. A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
2. BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
3. xxx-CB-A-CoL-Mon
4. A-CB-yyy-CoL-Mon
5. A-CoL-yyy-CB-Mon
6. CB-A-yyy-CoL-Mon
 
Originally posted by starlifter

Barbs are not a negative, because:

.
.
.
.

5. If the Archer pops the hut, and we get a Barb, we will lose the Archer to the Barb horse (about 90% or more chance). No reason to risk that!
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Is that a contradiction? All of my discussion has been based on what if we pop the hut now (because that's what we need to decide first). So, Barbs are a downside since if we pop the hut now and get a horseman, it will (almost certainly) kill the archer.

There are two main choices right now:

1) Pop the hut right now.

The archer has not moved yet this turn, all the other units have.

2) Pop the hut later.

If we wait 2 or 3 turns the Chariot can get over there.

Downside to that? We are hoping to get the archer back to TF's in 7 turns? If he waits for the chariot and has to kill any units, he won't make it.

If we don't do 1), then I'm thinking we should just let the Chariot handle it by himself and let the Archer get back to TF's. We just make sure he enters the hut with 1 movement left and then there's no worries on Barbs killing us.
 
What city do we want to build the settler for 'Gem City'?

If TF's builds one, it will take 2 turns longer to get the new city built than if RC builds one.

Plus, if we continue to build a defensive unit in RC, I would suggest making it a Phalanx rather than a warrior.

City production, along with popping the hut, are the main issues we need decided before the next batch of turns.
 
I definitely think we should *not* disband RC, since the Palace
would have to be rebuilt. I too think that Thunder Falls should
build a settler to found the Gem City.
 
by SL:
Barbs are not a negative, because:
....
5. If the Archer pops the hut, and we get a Barb, we will lose the Archer to the Barb horse (about 90% or more chance). No reason to risk that!

by DoM:
Is that a contradiction? All of my discussion has been based on what if we pop the hut now (because that's what we need to decide first). So, Barbs are a downside since if we pop the hut now and get a horseman, it will (almost certainly) kill the archer.
Click to expand...
Yes, that does look like a contradiction! I must have bungled #5 in the cutting room floor. :D It was really meant to be why the barb does not matter, since the barb will likely kill the archer, and so naturally we can avoid popping the hut until the Chariot arrives. With luck, if a barb occurs, the archer can become a vet. The nightmare outcome will be Warrior Code or Horseback Riding (since MM cannot occur for us yet). Pottery & Masonry are pretty bad too, at this point. But Alphabet, BW, & CB are all good science outcomes.

Downside to that? We are hoping to get the archer back to TF's in 7 turns? If he waits for the chariot and has to kill any units, he won't make it.
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Given the ideal way the map is turing out, the Archer won't be needed in TF or RC, as RC should switch to a Settler (just for one turn, to avoid making a warrior), then switch to Phalanx. The Phalanx can be had in just 3 extra turns over a Warrior. That will release the other 2 units for northward team exploration, except for the Horseman which can stay behind. Originally, the archer could have replaced the warrior (now a Phalanx) in RC, and the warrior could have explored a wide continent,with no worries if it was killed. But the team of the Archer and Chariot are so powerful in early game that if the land continues north, they should crush the nearest neighbor (and redneck them along the way, taking gold and any good techs, like Masonry, Mysticism, or Pottery, after we get Monarchy).


Even if the land ends in the north, the archer is going to have to occupy a choke point for the barb attacks coming from the undeveloped terrain in the area where the Gems/Chariot/Archer/Hut currently are. If the land continues north, the Chariot and Archer should probably not return at all, as they can team up and wipe out an AI capital if they can find one.

then I'm thinking we should just let the Chariot handle it by himself and let the Archer get back to TF's. We just make sure he enters the hut with 1 movement left and then there's no worries on Barbs killing us.
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The Archer will not be necessary in RC in 7 turns, since the Phalanx should cover the happiness (and the base 2 defense) issue there for about 7+15+1=23 turns.

Definitely make no settler at RC, since the 2nd whale needs to produce! RC can probably finish one wonder about the time the AI is starting it's first. Then maybe a temple (probably RB), and on to the 2nd wonder.

It will take about 7 turns for RC to gain a population point and 8 turns for the settler to be built.

There's no way I would support the idea of disbanding our capital city (or any city at this point).
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I totally agree with no disbanding! :)

RC is too powerful (with the whales) to build settlers, for a long time. It must grow big, ASAP, and start a Wonder. Other cities will service RC. Since Writing is a long way off (for dips), then use our gold to really push settler production in TFalls. Ripple out 2 settlers in minimum time by buying up to the Phalanx (20s) level in 5 turns from now, when we have 16 gold in the treasury (2.5g/s*4s=10g to IPRB up to 20s, thus saving 2 days). The Gems City will come that much sooner, and get it's wonder started. If the land ends, maybe the archer can either bottleneck the barb invasion from north of Gems City, or defend the city itself, and the Chariot can chase. Gems City will need an IPRB'd Phalanx ASAP.

EDIT: Changed the TF typo DoM discovered to RC (its in italics).
 
Originally posted by starlifter
Given the ideal way the map is turing out, the Archer won't be needed in TF, as TF should switch to a Settler (just for one turn, to avoid making a warrior), then switch to Phalanx. The Phalanx can be had in just 3 extra turns over a Warrior.
Click to expand...

You're basically saying that you think both cities should build a Phalanx? So, neither city is building a settler to found Gem city?

I don't agree. Gem City could be a huge trade center. The sooner we get it built, the better it will be. Waiting for each city to build their own defender is unnecessary. At the least, TF's should have either the archer or horseman go to it to cover it's unrest and let it build the settler.
 
No. This is it:

RC=Phalanx (but must switch to Settler for 1 turn until our science give us Bronze Working, then switch to Phalanx).

TFalls=Settler ... that is why the Horseman must return by the 7th day, to control happiness at size 2.





Here is the confusing thing... we need to push hard for the Gems City. We can accelerate the TFalls 1st Settler by 2 days. This is how:

1. We have 6 gold, making 2 per day; in five days, we have 6+2*5=16 gold.

2. In 5 days, we have 6+2*5=16 shields. We IPRB ( here is IPRB explanation ) from 16 to 20 shields, saving 4/2=2 days.

3. TFalls Settler #1 rushes to found Gems City, which immediately builds a Phalanx then Wonder, terrain, barbs, and AI permitting. If Gems City can pull off the Colossus, great! It will likely lose the Colossus race if monarchy is not discovered on our Tech#5, due to the immense Despotism corruption and waste (Shield #3 will be waste in Despotism).

4. If Monarchy occurs quick (and it will, if we do not build a Settler at RC), then Gems City should build the Colossus unless an AI is also having a great start like we are.



Note: If an AI pushes us, our capital will naturally build Colssus, and be a darned good SSC, but more importantly, it will be a good trade city. Like you and others have said, the Gems City will be a great SSC... and it will be awesome if the undiscovered special is a Gold Mine, Wine, or even Gems or Silk.




In a few turns, we'll know if we are isolated ot not. If isolated, the Archer and Chariot can help in defense. This well allow TFalls to immediately make a 2nd settler (IPRB to 20s via warrior and phalanx), which should move north 3 tiles & found the helper city to produce units and settlers, and fix up the terrain for RC, which cannot make units for happiness, due to the Wonder construction. TFalls can make a 3rd settler for City#5, and IPRB to 20 if wars & funds allow :).
 
At the least, TF's should have either the archer or horseman go to it to cover it's unrest and let it build the settler.
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Uncorruptable whales cannot be ignored. The math is very powerful, esp. in early game Despotism. RC must get to size 2 ASAP. It must also get a wonder ASAP... just which wonder depends on how the game goes, but Colossus will be available next turn, when BW should be discovered (3 beakers per turn * 4 turns, and cost is 10 beakers).

RC is also on a Plains. Growth will not accelerate when we get monarchy in about 25 turns.

But the 2 uber important things are put both whales to work, rake in the gold an science and shields, and make 2 wonders (my guess is, if all goes well, Pyramids and Marco Polo, if Gems City can pull off both Colossus and Hanging Gardens. We will have Trade PDQ (Pretty Darned Quick) with Monarchy and 3 whales working, and 2 more on the way.... and Caravans will be able to finish off HG in Gems City, hopefully :).


Waste will be a non-issue in Gems City, once a road is built from Gems City, over the Silk, and to City #4 (the Support City sitting on the Grassland Shield). This is because of the way the game figures path to capital.

:)
 
So, basically it was a typo then. You meant RC not TF.
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Aha! :eek: I see now; I did not notice my typo! :blush: With making Phalanx at RC, and Horseman coming to TFalls, happiness is set for a long time... and the Archer is not needed in either city (RC or TFalls), at least yet. Italics in the original post now fix the error. Thanks. :)
 
im not an advisor, but i think the chariot and archer should look around to see if theres a hill or forst to protect the archer less it is a barb. The archer should be fortefied but the chariot might me dead meat, thats more certain. Besides, we can't garentee a barb. What if its Iron Working, or code of laws? The huts arn't all bad.
 
Sorry for my absence this morning. I am doing loads of stuff at work and haven't had a chance to even post yet. :(
I like the plan to make Gems City the SSC but if we can switch RC to a wonder asap then it can always be a back-up SSC if necessary. I agree that the hut should be popped by the chariot, if at all for the moment, and am happy for the archer to remain in the general area to kill any barbs that might emerge. What is the plan if the hut yields cash? We can buy the settler a lot quicker with extra gs from the hut. :) The extra special should be uncovered next turn and that will make our decisions a lot easier. Hopefully it won't be a grassland, although with the current specials then I still believe that the site is better. The tech support (;)) from RC will help us get to Monarchy quicker and mean we can get the SSC underway (wherever it should go). I realise that the SSC is best for the HG, but I'll settle for it in RC if necessary. The AI will not get it! :D
 
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