Two Painful 0.25 Games

[Blackclove]

I've tried the new [0.25d] version twice, and both times it's turned into a deadly game between my civ and barbarians. The first time, as Luichurp, Orthus showed up with an army of perhaps 20 orcs following him (are they programmed to follow him into battle? or is it a coincidence?). He had commando and a 5-star promotion thanks to having wiped out Morgoth. Since I only had warriors armed with copper at that point, there wasn't much I could do. Game over. There are two other civs on the continent, and both have only two cities each. They're gonna be toast soon, too.

The second game I drew the green elf mercenary guys -- I forgot their name -- and expanded much further, crushing Os Gabrella myself. However, on my continent we've already encountered Orthus, Acheron the Red Dragon, the Hyborem, and Barbatos. OH JOY!!

The only other civ left standing on my continent is the Clan, and only because they are at peace with the barbs. At least two other civilizations have died from barbarians. Barbatos has been wandering and summoning huge numbers of elementals and they are slowly wiping out my defenses, thanks to the roads he and the clan have built. He has at least four huge cities left, and my best attempts to get troops close to him have met with disaster. At some point, the entire continent was on fire thanks to Hyborem and the dragon, and I had to rush to get adepts and a water node. They run around putting out fires all day until Barbatos kills them with wraiths and elementals.

I destroyed Hyborem through pure luck; their demonic leader walked out to attack the Clan, and while he was gone two of my hill giants, absurdly promoted elf hero unit, and a bunch of my Kilmorph guys attacked Dis. We took it over before the demon could get back to us, and it wiped him from the map. (His burning lands are still there, and so a water adept is on continuous duty.) Right after, Orthus showed up, and he managed to kill my giants and promoted Kilmorph guys, but the elf nailed him. The elf is carrying his axe, and we've built the werewolf. Despite that, Barbatos is grinding down my western border, sacking cities with elementals. My elf hero can take one elemental, but if two or more show up, I think he'll be toast. I survived one attack only by luck; since heroes have a reduced chance of defending, the second elemental killed a mercenary unit instead of him.

Thank goodness we discovered ships, right? We can go find some non-evil people to help us! So we sailed over to the next continent and found... Pentarch the insane, founder of the Ashen Veil, and his Doviello ally cranking up the armageddon counter! Just when things were going reasonably well, and Barbatos seemed to be losing a lot of wolf riders to our defenders, the 'geddon counter hits 40 and all our farms are trashed, losing all the health and happy bonuses simultaneously. Lands degenerate, with lots of deserts showing up. I scramble to keep alive while my populations dwindle and reshuffle. All those forests growing in deserts look weird.

That's about where it stands. I had to drop back to Noble level to survive at all, and it seems like I'm constantly fighting for survival. In 0.23 I consistently won on higher levels.

 

[BeefontheBone]

In 0.23 I consistently won on higher levels.

So, this is good, no?

I expect Barbatos will get some kind of nerf before too long, he can be a bit much. You should have had plenty of time to prepare for Orthus if he's wiped out a whole other civ in that first game. Though it's tricky to get early military as the Luchiurp unless you rush Runes - the Soldiers do a good job against Orthus.

 

[DeaExMachina]

Sounds like the Barbs get even meaner in 0.25, I haven't tried it since I don't have BtS yet but those Barbarians always have huge effects on my games. Hell once as the Lanun Orthus spawned in the second ring of my capital city! But its nice to hear that the Barbs get a new Hero, it was pretty boring with only Orthus since Archeron does nothing but sit there.

 

[Blackclove]

Good or bad, I don't know. It's different. In 0.23 I was mostly concerned with planning an offensive strategy to deal with my neighbors, occasionally pausing to deal with unexpected events. In 0.25, I spend a lot more time defensively reacting to events outside of my immediate control. Maybe it's just an accident of the two games I played, though. In none of my 0.23 games did I see Orthus; I just heard about his axe changing hands somewhere in Erebus.

By the way, I did rush Runes, but of course the first city Orthus took was the city with Runes. I had just finished the first temple. I admit I fooled around a bit, moving my scouts around collecting animals and using my captured spider and gorillas to strike fear into the hearts of the Amurites. I just didn't think about Orthus at all when I was building my empire... everyone was far away, so I thought nobody could hurt me, and went into peaceful builder mode. Oops

Oh, and I forgot to say - I thought Orthus had spawned on another continent. Turns out it was mine. DOH!

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

Had the same happened to me tonight Swarms of barbarians owerwhelming me and AIs. Till I reached swordsmen the only AI on the map was Grigori and one with peace with barbs. Now I am civilising the world again with iron and fire but AC is rising prety fast.

I love the new 'more barbs' settings

 

[vorshlumpf]

Gah! .25 sounds sooo awesome! I would love to have games like those. *grumble*

 

[Nikis-Knight]

If you would prefer a bit less barbarians, you could add another AI. They would take up space for the barbs to spawn in.

 

[CCA]

I really dont think Barbaratos should be nerfed

It gives the game a much needed intensity.

Although to be fair barbarians haven't been that much of a problem for me because I keep spawning on islands...

 

[strelkovaya]

maybe a thing for later patchs would be that barbatos spawns in a mountain, replaces the mountain with the unique he spawns with and then does what he does best?
It would prefer to spawn on a large continent in neutral, but could lower himself to spawn in a mountain anywhere, including inside cultural borders.
I hear there are issues working with mountains, but how about replacing them?

 

[Tiarilir]

Sounds like the Barbs get even meaner in 0.25, I haven't tried it since I don't have BtS yet but those Barbarians always have huge effects on my games. Hell once as the Lanun Orthus spawned in the second ring of my capital city! But its nice to hear that the Barbs get a new Hero, it was pretty boring with only Orthus since Archeron does nothing but sit there.

Actually, I've seen Acheron built a city close to the Elemental Spawner (whatever name), and then Orthus spawned not too far away. They wiped us all out together.

First they conquered 1 civ, then another, and then a third. And then they took us all XD

 

[eekhoorn]

That second game sounds awesome.
I also occasionaly lose a game, and I think it's great. Winning all the time is boring Barbados does occur as too powerful to me. It's happened several times that he killed a civ in the first few turns of the game. I usually don't have much trouble with Orthus, in fact I often send some hunters in his direction to get his axe

 

[Sowy]

Strong barbs make me happy. I had my own mini mod where barbs were pretty crazy and levelled up with you. I like it that way though... it's the fun of battle without the pesky commitment of war =p

 

[Sarisin]

First off, kudos to the OP for an interesting and entertaining write-up of his two games.

Yes, it is great fun having your Adepts play volunteer firemen responding to hell fire and hoping wandering barb units don't pick them off.

I played my first game of .25g and it ended in a Conquest victory for me as the barbs wiped out 8 of the 9 AI civs before turn 255 in an Epic speed game. The only remaining AI civ was Charadon who was at peace with the barbs. This meant stacks of barb lizardmen, warriors, and goblins attacking my cities every turn. Fortunately, I had some strong defenders (including one with Orthus' Axe). I was able to spring loose a small stack of units who made their way to Doviello territory. I declared war and their cities were defended by Beastmen with minimal promotions. I had the Conquest Victory on turn 287.

I'd like to say the barbs are on steroids in .25, but again it appears to me to be more of a problem with the AI civs. They still don't seem to understand what the raging barb option means. As a result, they expand like crazy leaving only one Warrior defender and are easily overrun by the invading barbs.

I did not have to face Orthus, Barbatos, or Acheron, though, so maybe I would share the fate of the AI if that happened.

 

[Sowy]

So AI code probably needs to be changed so they try to build more defenders.

 

[Willgar]

Nice game discription sounds like a great game....

 

[dscarron]

Hurm. I was playing a .25h game and Orthus showed up and began to seriously trash the Pentarch. Then he stopped...

This was new behavior that I've seen from 'ol Orthy - he just hunkered down for a while at the city. (Ok, right up until a scout got too close and was given a dirt nap...) This was just fine by me as he had maxed out most of his promotions on the Jester King's corpses and was fighting with just Warriors.

After he started to re-rampage I got lucky - I caught him on a Desert and jumped him.

Usually, Orthy just kept coming until dead. This was an interesting change...

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

[sorry for my English] [the game was played with following settings: Living Lands, Labscurum(? the barbs start with cities), Aggressive AI, Raging Barbs, Pernament Allaiance, No altar victory, I think also no time victory by I am not sure, Monarch]

I have finished my game yesterday and what a game that was No pictures cause I never planed an AAR.

It was a race with time, with barbarians, with other AIs, with inflation! and with the Armageddon counter.

The first problem was the all swarming barbarians. Had to defend for years with no improvements cause they would be pillaged. When my wariors and hunters got some XP they could stick their nose out of the cities and stand on my borders. With 2 cities I thought I was doing not so well but hearing AIs dying like flies I just prayed the lich I was hearing about wont come to me next.
Next problem was the gold, or the lack of it. I spend nearly 200 turns to found a 3rd city [the map was heavy ice and forests {here is a good place to mention that Acheron started forest fires and the whole world was a big inferno, there was no smoke, fires started immediately, but the map was so full of forests that they would grew back very fast just to start a new wave of flames and like in that commercial...and going...and going...and...}] At that time my upkeep was to big to my puny empire. Also the inflation started to rise. Here it wasnt a big problem...for now. Later the inflation was the 3/4 of my whole budget. To help me with the gold problem I went on a little barbarian demolishing tour. Razing barb cities gave me a lot of gold and stopped a little the barbs so I could develope my lands.

With only me[random civ:Malakim], Grigori and the Clan left in play I was not woring about a religion. I was more worried about that I had to run 40% science and had only the first techs researched. At least I got bronze so my struggle with barbarian axemen was on equal terms My super experienced warriors became swordsmen but my elite stack went to close to the litch and I have lost 3 of my best units [each with 100 XP from barbs]. I founded the leaves religion to help me in the forests. It really did not. Never got to hidden paths. Again the gold [due to inflation] was scarse and I had to go to war with Casiell. Luckily he had only wariors and was no match for me. Before the real war there was a nice period of culture war and 2 of his cities switched sides The Clan was next door and had axemen with bronze but got too powerful and barbs broke their peace with them. From this point the Clan didn't rise in points at all for 200 turns.

Killing Casiel rose the AC to 59! When did that happen?! I knew I did not stand a chance against the horsemen. My science bar was at 20% at best with money changers in every city [5 or 6 of them] I had to do something. Preperations took some time but to take the last AI I had to had some catapults to take the cultural defence down.

Finally I had to go and take some barb cities for gold. I took over first two cause I didnt want to rise the AC further. Pillaged the rest of the world [the lich and the dragon were mistiurosly gone at this time] but I knew also that new cities, especially long way from my capital will only rise my upkeep and inflation. At least they were fully developed with towns everywhere[can the barbarian state be suffering from inflation too?]. But there it came, a city that I couldnt take over, it would only eat gold not giving any in return. Razing it gave me ~100gp and the first horsemen of doom. 3 turns after he came to me and took over my new cities. I panicked...a little. With 20 str +10 death I did not stand a chance. Not to mention a horde of barbs that followed him. I gathered all my surplus defenders in one spot to make an unbreakable line. If he attacked one/twice a turn then all I had to do was to provide 2 new defenders for the line a turn. That was possible, at least I hoped. War with he Clan started the same turn I saw the horsemen. It was either him or me. I would also like to mention that my gold was -50 per turn with the bar at 0% for science.

The closest city was taken over in no time[catapults had a short way to get to the front] Next, thou, had to be razed. Guess what happened next. Yup, the AC rose and the 2nd horsemen came. On the other side of my empire, one city next to my capital. Luckly the first one settled with those 2 cities and my 'Maginot Line' was only attacked by the horsemen lackeys so it could spare some defenders and new reinforcements could go to defend the other side of my empire. One turn: one unit dead, 2 units arrive at the city, the Plan worked With tall that troops I gathered I could kill the wretched thing but it had fear so I couldnt even try to wear him out.

In turn ~380 or so the last city of the Clan defended by Rantine and a catapult was destroyed. My cities were on strike for two turns then and the 3rd horsemen was somewhere on the map.

Nothing happened. 0.o

I thought to my self that somewhere there is a AI that I do not have contact with! The horror! I pressed the next turn button, heard some fights resolving and whoila! You have won the game message. Wow, that was a game I tell you, best I had in months. The endless struggle, the drama, events here and there, Armageddon...8h of life worthy spend I tell you :]

 

[Scott Alexander]

That's interesting. I haven't had such good luck containing the horsemen; did you have a natural chokepoint or did you come up with an interesting formation?

My last game: Started as Kuriotates. Sent a scout from my first city to explore. Found the Broken Sepulchre right outside my city limits. Broken Sepulchre spawns Red Semicircle Elemental. Red Semicircle Elemental destroys scout. As an encore, Red Semicircle Elemental destroys my city. Game over in ten turns

On my previous games, though, I've had much better experiences with the new barbarians. It's pretty humbling to discover that barbarians have taken over a third of your pangaea continent.

 

[Sarisin]

So AI code probably needs to be changed so they try to build more defenders.

You're probably right. However, the problem is mainly with the raging barb games. I think 1-2 defenders is OK in your games without raging barbs. However, cities can be quickly overrun when the barbs are coming in large numbers.

In addition to expanding too quickly in raging barb games, I think the defenders the AI builds are often bizarre. Scouts just are not good defenders.

Valis, good write-up. I really enjoy reading the tales of barbs going crazy.

My second game with the same settings (huge map, Prince, raging barbs, aggAI, Epic, barb cities starting) turned into the same as my first. The barbs took down 5-6 AIs before turn 250 and were really pounding my two cities. It is very tough keeping your improvements from getting pillaged unless they are right next to your cities themselves. Expanding beyond 2 cites is very difficult too.

Maybe it is a combination of improved barb AI and the same poor AI for the civs in defending against raging barbs. One thing that does make .25 games tougher is the option to have barb cities on the map when you start. It is hard to go out and take them early on as you are busy protecting your capital from raging barbs. Soon, those goblin workers quickly link the barb cities and the barbs zip around the map.

One funny thing I saw was that a barb city near me was building the Forbidden Palace of all things turn 1.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Forbidden Palace has a number of cities as it's only requirement, so they can start building it right form the start. However i thought barbrs had no upkeep so no need to build it.
Raging barbs was never a good idea with FFH.