Ultimate CIVII List

[TimTheEnchanter]

If it were up to me I'd have the 'Automate' option for EVERYTHING!

Why do you even bother playing?!?!

I've seen enough in this thread.

 

[Smash]

I know the feeling Tim.

I would have been very happy with Civ2 and a bag of chips.All I got was an empty bag.Somehow I have to figure a way to have fun with it.Only so much you can do with an empty bag....

Automate everything...zoinks..don't let Firaxis see that.The only thing we'll get to do with Civ4 is install.......

 

[yoshi]

I meant everything that can be automated (i.e. things that don't require any significant decision-making where automation would reduce tediousness...obviously). There are still a number of features in Civ that can be automated IMO so that more interesting/crucial aspects of the game can receive more attention.

(Of all the things I commented on in that post, that's what you reply to?)

I really think some of you should experiment with Civ3 a bit more before posting criticism of it. (And yes, there's plenty to criticize.)

I can only assume most of you don't care much for modding Civ2, because otherwise you'd be raving about how much better Civ2 scens are--and rightly so.

 

[happy_Alex]

It's everywhere but not in sufficient quantities to build masses of armor...in reality. Civ3 is not trying to be realistic. If it were, Iron would be more numerous and Swordsmen wouldn't require it as it doesn't take much to forge small arms

It is in sufficient quantities. I'm not arguing with the basic premise of resources in civ3 jus that the execution is v.poor. For example Tin would have been a better choice. It is used to make bronze; in the British museum there is a try square from ancient egypt and the tin used to make it may have come from Cornwall, the only place in this opart of the wolrd where it is found in sufficiently large quantities. (The last European tin mine was in Cornwall and it closed a couple of years ago.) Perhaps it was carried on Triremes tho these may have sunk if they sailed out of sight of land

I just dont get that whole 'Civ3 is not realistic so its not a huge deal' scenario. Lack of realism is for me a massive deal. If reality isn't a big part of the game we'd play fantasy or sci-fi type games.

Yeh and I never tried modding either. Must give it a go...

 

[yoshi]

in the British museum there is a try square from ancient egypt and the tin used to make it may have come from Cornwall, the only place in this opart of the wolrd where it is found in sufficiently large quantities.

Interesting bit of info. I had no idea it was so rare.

Perhaps it was carried on Triremes tho these may have sunk if they sailed out of sight of land

Good one. (Would've played better had you not added the j/k emoticon.)

Lack of realism is for me a massive deal.

It is to me as well but many players could give a crap about realism. And frankly, it's not that kind of game, and its designers have that very clearly in mind. (It's too unrealistic in so many other ways that to knit-pick over these things is pointless. But for the record, I got into modding because I wanted some more sophisticated civing and something more historically relevant. I'm presently working on a Civ3 scen that play more realistically in every aspect of the game--also a Civ2 version that makes heavy use of events. Problem is, I'll already have one foot in the grave by the time I finish it; having stuff done for you is so much easier, hence the reason most people just buy the game and bite their tongues if they don't like it.)

 

[happy_Alex]

Good one. (Would've played better had you not added the j/k emoticon.)

Yeh I put it in for any Americans.

It is to me as well but many players could give a crap about realism. And frankly, it's not that kind of game, and its designers have that very clearly in mind.

au contrare old chum. If you think about it, there are alot of threads and discussions like this one which basically amount to 'whats wrong with civ3 and how can it be out right'. But I think that we have got the wrong end of the stick altogether. For example Im just readignt this document about ideas for civ4 posted on the civfanatics home page. What it ultimately amounts to is a refinement of the original Civ game. Civ 4 will be another iteration of the original group. Don't expect Civ4 to resolve issues that we're debating now because we're stuck in a replaying the sam thing a la Star Trek episodes when the crew of theEnterprise is stuck in a 'causality' loop or other such twadle when they're forced to replay the same scenario till they work out a way out.

I know it will never happen, but Civ needs high level philosophical changes. Here's an example. Modern cities are vast, the largest I understand, being Tokyo with some 20 million people. Even ancient Rome at its height had a population of 2 million, apparently. But civ cities never reach these numbers. The reason, I think, is that the model for population growth is wrong, ie in reality its exponential (doubles) whereas in civ it adds to it self in soem other way. I take your point about most people not giving a crap, but I think what im getting at is that a more accurate approach would resolve many of these other issues.

Its the same game, but with bells and whistles. Do we want more?

 

[yoshi]

Yeh I put it in for any Americans.

Ouch.

What it ultimately amounts to is a refinement of the original Civ game.

I think Firaxis has come to accept that many players are VERY conservative (quite probablythe majority of them) and thus changing the game too much--even if for the better--would alienate part of the target market. (Although, IMO civers seem to automatically buy anything with Sid's name on it--note that I didn't buy the Civ3TW XP because I actually checked to see if it was any good, which it wasn't, whereas many others bought it without thinking and then complained that it sucked...and then to add insult to injury...C3C included practically everything PTW did...AAAHAHAHAH...gotta luv those fanatical civers...<cough>.)

Anyway, Civ4 will include new stuff but it seems it's more a question of give and take rather than more of everything. The real bous will be that there will (supposedly) be very little in the way of hardcoded data and will use a full scripting language (Python), so you will be able to mod Civ to your standards. Namely, what Civ2 did only with much more flexibility.

The main reason why people will still keep playing Civ2 is that Civ4 will probably have requirements that mean spending most of the game waiting for your turn for anyone without a high-end system--even if it will (supposedly) be a more efficient program than Civ3.

In other words, don't expect the CFC Civ2 forums to die when Civ4 comes out...especially if the damn source code gets released.

I take your point about most people not giving a crap, but I think what im getting at is that a more accurate approach would resolve many of these other issues.

Most certainly: make it proportional to actual historical reality and it should play out in a more logical manner; just messing with Civ2's Rules, I've managed to make civ develop more realistically over time. Events can also really add a lot more historical depth to a Civ2 scen then even the best Civ3 scen.


BTW, for anyone who wants to get a better idea of what Civ4 will be like, see Civrules' thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=108315

 

[happy_Alex]

I like the cut of your jib, Yoshi. Point me in the direction of some of these mods that you speak of...

 

[yoshi]

I can't remember ever posting an official mod myself. I'm just way to lazy to put in the time to work out the map (MUCH harder than one would initially think because the AI functions differently--or even not at all--depedning on things like landmass distribution and other such stuff that your avergae civer isn't familiar with), units (odd combinations of unit abilities can cause problems), tech tree (even the slightest inconsistency will crash the game), general rules, terrain (like hex-editing fertility), artwork (a hassle for me because I don't really care for great-looking graphics in a strategy game--although I admit it makes it easier to look at for hours on end), the events (making sure they're all functional) and then once all that's done, balancing unit stats and getting the bloody AI to do what you want it to (to call this tedious would be a gross understatement). And even if I weren't lazy, RL stuff prevents me from getting large chuncks of time with which I could reall work on something concrete. Mostly, I just experiment or help others with their projects...when I have time.

Not much in the way of better 'epic' game mods for Civ2 I'm afraid. (I'm slowly working on one now but at this rate it will be done by the time Civilization VIII comes out.)

There are a wide range of Civ2 scens scatterd throughout the net and a decent collection right here at CFC.

As fro Civ3 scens, there are just too damn many of them to chose from. (There's a new one being posted EVERY DAY in the CFC Civ3 forums.)

The 'Rise and Rule' mod is meant to be a more elaboate version of the Civ3 epic game. It's even been mentioned at GameSpy (I think it was GameSpy). Trioed it out: I can appreciate the hard work that ent into the new stuff and re-balancing the epic game and it IS better than the epic game IMO so you might want to start with that if all you want is more challenge in the epic game.

For Civ3 scens in general, the Civ3 section of this site doesn't include a scenario section in the downloads page, which should be an indication of the overwhelming number of Civ3 scens/mods you will have to rumage through before finding one that suits you.

Where WW2 scens are concerned (some of the best scens are of this), Civ2 has the advantage of events so you can do everything from force AI tactics to changing output to meet historical requirements. In Civ3, you can literally add every vehicle type and infantry type that existed at the time but the war will play out pretty much according to the rules and nothing more. I'm presently helping out a bit on the 'Storm Over Europe' scen that may be the biggest WW2 scen ever designed for Civ. The biggest problem--as it is for all Civ3 scens--is the AI. (There's no convenient MoveUnit event action like in Civ2 so you really have no choice but to let the AI do its thing and hope to hell that it will play decently.)

The Spanish Civilization Site over at Apolyton has a large selection of Civ2 scens--particularly historical scens.

(I can't remember what the exact links are but you can easily find them by using a search engine.)

 

[BlackAdder60]

Ways in which CIVII is BETTER than CIVIII:

I enjoy playing Civ-2 more than playing Civ-3.


Of course if I get bored with playing Civ-2 I will be able to play Civ3 and Civ-4 (and propably by then also Civs 5, 6 and 7) , so either way, I am well set up for the next 10 years or so.

I've also got Civ ToT & SMAC & SMACx & Civ-EVO & Galactic civs & Age of empires 1&2 & Call to power 1&2. Hell... I'll be playing these games looong after PC's go obsolete...

Life's sooo wonderful sometimes...

 

[Glam Gilgamesh]

Sorry I have no better words but that is a crock.No offense.

No real strategic benefit?...you gotta be kidding

Delivering a cravan or moving a dozen spys into position for water poisoning is what kept Civ2 interesting after the ancient age.

There is no such interest in Civ3 after the ancient age.The only espionage I do in Civ3 is set up embassys.Whoopee.Anything else is a waste of time and gold

The strategic benefit is/was obvious.Beakers from caravans are extremely strong and the lowly spy is the most powerful unit in Civ2 by far.

The ability to add events.txt for a Civ2 scenario makes it a real scenario.
As opposed to the "scenarios" of Civ3.

The good things of Civ3 are strategic resources,unit capturing,bombardment,Great Leaders and maybe cultural borders.Unit animations are great but overall,"stock" civ3 graphics are an embarrasment to Firaxis.Heck ,we had better user made graphics 2 days after civ3 release.

The game itself is a "Civ2 for Dummies"

Civ3 is good but not great.
Civ2 is great....even now,some 10 years after release.

Diplomacy in Civ3 is neat at first but soon becomes a royal pain in the arse.Unwanted tedium

Bring back camels and top hats!

Civ 3 is "Civ for Dummies". Sad, but true.

Well said!

 

[Godwynn]

I've allways kept Civ II as "adult Civ" and Civ III as "cool young people" game

Wow, that is a great idea. Civ3 I do feel was made just to get more young people into Civilization.

 

[happy_Alex]

Well I run a civ club at school and the kids love them both. Must ask which they prefer though....

 

[t0mme]

Well, the only reason I still play CivII is because it fits in so beautiful with your windows-desktop. You can leave it running, while doing some more important things (like work or keep in contact with your reallife social enviroment).

And personally I like CivII graphics better (CivI dos is even better in that way), but I guess that's just a personal thingy...