Rinnero
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 30, 2011
- Messages
- 89
Among other Multiplayer problems, these two directly affect gameplay (unlike for example lack of animations) and are not considered to be technical problems that can be just fixed (crashes, freezes, etc.)
Anyone who played Multiplayer understands how important CF and DT are. Most of you think that the only/the best solution would be to enable turn-based, but in that case games will be 1.5-6 times longer. (duel-8players) But there IS a way how to get rid of CF and DT, and still play fast simultaneous turns.
Ive thought of a number of ideas that can almost completely remove CF and DT, and free your time for actual thinking (instead watching your army 90% of turn time, being ready to click). These are only ideas, they should be implemented by developers (actually I think by modders when DLL will be available, since Ive lost my faith in devs), so do not be afraid that its too long and complicated. Ill try to propose as many improvements as I can to eliminate even the smallest possibility to exploit anything of this, and will explain why these changes are needed.
Maybe some of these were in Civ IV (havent played it in MP), or in some other games, or were proposed by somewhere at this forum. It cant be that no one thought about this.
Lets start with the simplest things.
First, enable animations, and/or forbid attacking the same unit for 5 seconds after previous attack.
Explanation: Yes, at first I didnt see any use of it but graphical, but actually it does affect gameplay to some extent. It creates a buffer in between attacks of one unit, and allows other player to react to situation. And it also gives players more info about what is really going on. Of course, animations in MP should be at least twice faster than in SP.
It makes impossible multiple Click Fest (either in the beginning of turn, or mid-turn), when you quickly attack one unit with several yours, or attack and then retreat. The enemy may retreat with attacked unit after first or second attack, or block you retreat path. React in some way, in other words. (even with 2x speed of animation)
Second, if any unit moves when there is less than 15 seconds of turn timer left, his enemy receives additional 15 more seconds of current turn to think and make move. Other player cant move his units during this time. Also, if your enemy moves units when you already pressed end turn, it cancels.
Explanation: that will make waiting till end of turn meaningless, because your opponent will have enough time to think through what to do. Situations when one player quickly moves his units at the end of turn and then quickly at the beginning of next one wont occur anymore. You see your enemy pressed end turn, you quickly move few units and than end turn and move them again. <= Even such mid-turn Double Turn wont be possible either.
Third, if at least two players are at war, there should be some time for planning before the turn starts.
5 seconds + (10% of turn timer) seconds. Approximately 10 seconds early in game, 30 seconds in the end. You can end this phase before time runs out (if no major military activity occurs), or extend this time if you really need more time to think. During that time you can order your units what to do at the beginning of the turn. Units act in specific order, that depends on unit type and ordered action. (that will be explained below). After that, there is additional prepare phase, equal to half of first one. During it you can smooth out mistakes made at before-turn planning and to secure your front. When actions ordered at this phase are performed, the game proceeds as it is now (you can freely move your units).
If unit cannot execute your order because of enemy Zone of Control or enemy itself blocking the way, it cancels its order. Because enemy can order something as well, battlefield is very changeable (by the time itll be units turn to execute order something may change), thats why you can order things with few simple conditions. For melees that is move there if target tile is not occupied, attack there if target tile is occupied by enemy and move/attack there anyway. For ranged that is attack this unit if in range, attack this tile if it is occupied by enemy unit and attack any unit in range (the one whom you inflict the most damage is chosen if there are several in range). You can also order several actions for one unit. For example, move to this tile, than attack this tile, than move here. Or move here than shoot any target.
Explanation: This completely solves single CF. That is when at the beginning of turn you have one unit that you want to retreat (for example, and that is the most usual what you want in that situation), but an enemy wants to finish this unit. What outcome you believe is fair? The current one when who has better ping fulfills his wish? =) Or maybe that represents superior communication network so that his units receive orders faster? =)
And it also greatly improves the flow of battle, raising predictability of first wave of attack. At the same time it doesnt change game rules, it only organizes them. (buffs a little mounts, but actually CF and DT are reasons why they are weak in the first place) All units still have the same amount of Move as now, and cant do anything exceptional.
You dont need to click hysterically to move unit first. (or still fail at this if ping is really bad) You just order unit to do something, and then its up to game rules to decide who succeeds, not ping.
Fourth, more complicated. Order of actions. Lets discuss a little.
For example, we have a horseman and a swordsman. Sword wants to retreat, horse - to attack. Its quite logical that horseman is faster and can therefore move first. So, units with higher move, should move first. Lets call this new parameter Initiative, because there will be some exceptions when Move =/= Initiative, but usually itll be equal to units initial move. Lancer moves first, than knight, than longswordsman.
What if we have 2 swordsmen. Considering how valuable units are in CivV, I think that allowing retreating unit to move first will cause less change in balance of forces. After all, damaged unit needs to be healed first. For pursuing and finishing damaged units, you need faster units.
Another questionable situation is when these 2 swordsmen both want to move to the same tile. In this case, the one who spends less Move points to get there should move first.
Only if they both spend the same amount of Move points to get to tile, or if they both want to attack each other, one is chosen to move first randomly. But the next time such thing happen, the other players unit will move first.
About siege units. They and melee both have 2 move, but siege is vulnerable units that you shouldnt expose to such danger, and it shouldnt be able to run away even from melee. So, its Initiative is 1. But if it wants to shoot, it should be able to shoot first if it was set up. In that case (when shooting) its initiative is 3. It can shoot even faster than knights or cavalry move. If it wast set up, even if shooting its initiative is 1. Archers have initiative 2, and when they shoot 3.
And if ranged units shoot (often with the same Initiative 3), I think its not that hard to implement them shooting simultaneously. (small change in game rules!)
Initiative is equal to units move, except for all sieges that have -1 of move initiative. Initiative of any ranged attack is 3. Initiative of UUs is the initiative of parent unit (regardless of move, yes, Im looking at you Genghis). Initiative cant be increased with promotion +1move. Initiative of non-combat units is 3. Ancient ships have Ini1, renaissance and ironclad Ini2, subs Ini4, all other Ini3. (If you engaged into combat you cant run away without being hit, if only you arent sub). Planes have very high Ini.
Therefore final form of calculating sequence of acting:
Final Initiative = Initiative (0.1*number of tiles you want to move) attack penalty
Attack penalty is 0.5.
That means that if you want your cavalry to attack a unit that is 3 tiles away, its initiative will be
3 - (0.1*3) - 0.5 = 2.2. That means that if a unit you want to attack is rifleman, he moves after your cavalry in any case. If that unit is artillery, it wont be able to move, but it can shoot before your cavalry moves(if its set up). If there is another enemy cavalry that is 1 or 2 tiles away from yours, it can attack yours before you attack that rifleman, because its initiative is 2.3-2.4.
If, for example, archer is ordered to move first, than shoot, its initiative is 1.8-1.9 (not 3). He waits for units with higher initiative to act, than moves and shoots. If archer is ordered to shoot than move (with logistics for example), he shoots after everyone with higher than initiative 3 acted, than moves after everyone with higher than initiative 1.9 acted.
I repeat again. It doesnt change current rules. It only allows to do what you already can do. But regardless of your reaction and internet connection.
Fifth. Additional. We can further increase control over battlefield, by allowing some conditional orders be executed in mid-turn. For ranged that is attack this unit if in range, attack this tile if it is occupied by enemy unit and attack any unit in range. For melees that is only attack there if target tile is occupied by enemy. Do you think that is not fair that you can order your archer automatically attack anyone who comes in range? I cant see why it can be illogical or unrealistic or overpowered. You decided something. Your general (I mean unit) got the order and can execute it by himself. You just dont have to spend every second of turn watching battlefield and waiting for when enemy moves. And it is not 100% good decision as well. An enemy may trick you by moving melee to rough terrain first, and your unit will shoot at him first, if you ordered him to shoot at anyone in range.
Actually with all proposed changes this one is not must have, but it can at least relieve you of extra thinking in some (not very important) situations, or so on.
The only thing Im not sure about is interception. Sometimes a unit passes through tile you can shoot at, but in game it is impossible to shoot at this unit, if its starting point and target point is out of range. Maybe autoshoot/attack could intercept such actions automatically if autoattacking unit has higher initiative. (range units intercept anyone with Initiative 3 or lower, just as lancers (they have Ini4 and when they attack it is lowered to ~3.5, but is still high) That changes game rule (pretty strange but still).
Of course, maybe some of these things were unnecessary, but I think that Simultaneous turns Multiplayer will be truly playable only if all these changes be incorporated.
But if at least first 2.5 changes will be done, itll be great improvement. (you just wont be able to use prepare phase for massive battle itll be hard to predict which unit move first only few ways for CF stay)
Anyone who played Multiplayer understands how important CF and DT are. Most of you think that the only/the best solution would be to enable turn-based, but in that case games will be 1.5-6 times longer. (duel-8players) But there IS a way how to get rid of CF and DT, and still play fast simultaneous turns.
Ive thought of a number of ideas that can almost completely remove CF and DT, and free your time for actual thinking (instead watching your army 90% of turn time, being ready to click). These are only ideas, they should be implemented by developers (actually I think by modders when DLL will be available, since Ive lost my faith in devs), so do not be afraid that its too long and complicated. Ill try to propose as many improvements as I can to eliminate even the smallest possibility to exploit anything of this, and will explain why these changes are needed.
Maybe some of these were in Civ IV (havent played it in MP), or in some other games, or were proposed by somewhere at this forum. It cant be that no one thought about this.
Lets start with the simplest things.
First, enable animations, and/or forbid attacking the same unit for 5 seconds after previous attack.
Explanation: Yes, at first I didnt see any use of it but graphical, but actually it does affect gameplay to some extent. It creates a buffer in between attacks of one unit, and allows other player to react to situation. And it also gives players more info about what is really going on. Of course, animations in MP should be at least twice faster than in SP.
It makes impossible multiple Click Fest (either in the beginning of turn, or mid-turn), when you quickly attack one unit with several yours, or attack and then retreat. The enemy may retreat with attacked unit after first or second attack, or block you retreat path. React in some way, in other words. (even with 2x speed of animation)
Second, if any unit moves when there is less than 15 seconds of turn timer left, his enemy receives additional 15 more seconds of current turn to think and make move. Other player cant move his units during this time. Also, if your enemy moves units when you already pressed end turn, it cancels.
Explanation: that will make waiting till end of turn meaningless, because your opponent will have enough time to think through what to do. Situations when one player quickly moves his units at the end of turn and then quickly at the beginning of next one wont occur anymore. You see your enemy pressed end turn, you quickly move few units and than end turn and move them again. <= Even such mid-turn Double Turn wont be possible either.
Third, if at least two players are at war, there should be some time for planning before the turn starts.
5 seconds + (10% of turn timer) seconds. Approximately 10 seconds early in game, 30 seconds in the end. You can end this phase before time runs out (if no major military activity occurs), or extend this time if you really need more time to think. During that time you can order your units what to do at the beginning of the turn. Units act in specific order, that depends on unit type and ordered action. (that will be explained below). After that, there is additional prepare phase, equal to half of first one. During it you can smooth out mistakes made at before-turn planning and to secure your front. When actions ordered at this phase are performed, the game proceeds as it is now (you can freely move your units).
If unit cannot execute your order because of enemy Zone of Control or enemy itself blocking the way, it cancels its order. Because enemy can order something as well, battlefield is very changeable (by the time itll be units turn to execute order something may change), thats why you can order things with few simple conditions. For melees that is move there if target tile is not occupied, attack there if target tile is occupied by enemy and move/attack there anyway. For ranged that is attack this unit if in range, attack this tile if it is occupied by enemy unit and attack any unit in range (the one whom you inflict the most damage is chosen if there are several in range). You can also order several actions for one unit. For example, move to this tile, than attack this tile, than move here. Or move here than shoot any target.
Explanation: This completely solves single CF. That is when at the beginning of turn you have one unit that you want to retreat (for example, and that is the most usual what you want in that situation), but an enemy wants to finish this unit. What outcome you believe is fair? The current one when who has better ping fulfills his wish? =) Or maybe that represents superior communication network so that his units receive orders faster? =)
And it also greatly improves the flow of battle, raising predictability of first wave of attack. At the same time it doesnt change game rules, it only organizes them. (buffs a little mounts, but actually CF and DT are reasons why they are weak in the first place) All units still have the same amount of Move as now, and cant do anything exceptional.
You dont need to click hysterically to move unit first. (or still fail at this if ping is really bad) You just order unit to do something, and then its up to game rules to decide who succeeds, not ping.
Fourth, more complicated. Order of actions. Lets discuss a little.
For example, we have a horseman and a swordsman. Sword wants to retreat, horse - to attack. Its quite logical that horseman is faster and can therefore move first. So, units with higher move, should move first. Lets call this new parameter Initiative, because there will be some exceptions when Move =/= Initiative, but usually itll be equal to units initial move. Lancer moves first, than knight, than longswordsman.
What if we have 2 swordsmen. Considering how valuable units are in CivV, I think that allowing retreating unit to move first will cause less change in balance of forces. After all, damaged unit needs to be healed first. For pursuing and finishing damaged units, you need faster units.
Another questionable situation is when these 2 swordsmen both want to move to the same tile. In this case, the one who spends less Move points to get there should move first.
Only if they both spend the same amount of Move points to get to tile, or if they both want to attack each other, one is chosen to move first randomly. But the next time such thing happen, the other players unit will move first.
About siege units. They and melee both have 2 move, but siege is vulnerable units that you shouldnt expose to such danger, and it shouldnt be able to run away even from melee. So, its Initiative is 1. But if it wants to shoot, it should be able to shoot first if it was set up. In that case (when shooting) its initiative is 3. It can shoot even faster than knights or cavalry move. If it wast set up, even if shooting its initiative is 1. Archers have initiative 2, and when they shoot 3.
And if ranged units shoot (often with the same Initiative 3), I think its not that hard to implement them shooting simultaneously. (small change in game rules!)
Initiative is equal to units move, except for all sieges that have -1 of move initiative. Initiative of any ranged attack is 3. Initiative of UUs is the initiative of parent unit (regardless of move, yes, Im looking at you Genghis). Initiative cant be increased with promotion +1move. Initiative of non-combat units is 3. Ancient ships have Ini1, renaissance and ironclad Ini2, subs Ini4, all other Ini3. (If you engaged into combat you cant run away without being hit, if only you arent sub). Planes have very high Ini.
Therefore final form of calculating sequence of acting:
Final Initiative = Initiative (0.1*number of tiles you want to move) attack penalty
Attack penalty is 0.5.
That means that if you want your cavalry to attack a unit that is 3 tiles away, its initiative will be
3 - (0.1*3) - 0.5 = 2.2. That means that if a unit you want to attack is rifleman, he moves after your cavalry in any case. If that unit is artillery, it wont be able to move, but it can shoot before your cavalry moves(if its set up). If there is another enemy cavalry that is 1 or 2 tiles away from yours, it can attack yours before you attack that rifleman, because its initiative is 2.3-2.4.
If, for example, archer is ordered to move first, than shoot, its initiative is 1.8-1.9 (not 3). He waits for units with higher initiative to act, than moves and shoots. If archer is ordered to shoot than move (with logistics for example), he shoots after everyone with higher than initiative 3 acted, than moves after everyone with higher than initiative 1.9 acted.
I repeat again. It doesnt change current rules. It only allows to do what you already can do. But regardless of your reaction and internet connection.
Fifth. Additional. We can further increase control over battlefield, by allowing some conditional orders be executed in mid-turn. For ranged that is attack this unit if in range, attack this tile if it is occupied by enemy unit and attack any unit in range. For melees that is only attack there if target tile is occupied by enemy. Do you think that is not fair that you can order your archer automatically attack anyone who comes in range? I cant see why it can be illogical or unrealistic or overpowered. You decided something. Your general (I mean unit) got the order and can execute it by himself. You just dont have to spend every second of turn watching battlefield and waiting for when enemy moves. And it is not 100% good decision as well. An enemy may trick you by moving melee to rough terrain first, and your unit will shoot at him first, if you ordered him to shoot at anyone in range.
Actually with all proposed changes this one is not must have, but it can at least relieve you of extra thinking in some (not very important) situations, or so on.
The only thing Im not sure about is interception. Sometimes a unit passes through tile you can shoot at, but in game it is impossible to shoot at this unit, if its starting point and target point is out of range. Maybe autoshoot/attack could intercept such actions automatically if autoattacking unit has higher initiative. (range units intercept anyone with Initiative 3 or lower, just as lancers (they have Ini4 and when they attack it is lowered to ~3.5, but is still high) That changes game rule (pretty strange but still).
Of course, maybe some of these things were unnecessary, but I think that Simultaneous turns Multiplayer will be truly playable only if all these changes be incorporated.
But if at least first 2.5 changes will be done, itll be great improvement. (you just wont be able to use prepare phase for massive battle itll be hard to predict which unit move first only few ways for CF stay)
