Unbalanced Civics

[Bigfoot]

My reasoning is this : if we can tell just by looking at what a civic does that it's overpowered, then surely Firaxis must have seen it too.
In that case, either a. they don't mind it being overpowered because they are stupid or b. it's actually not overpowered because Firaxis did its job.

Yeah, I'm stretching it a bit, but still.

Exactly, we won't really know how powerful any civic is until we have played the game some and see how it integrates with an overall strategy. It would be premature to say that any aspect of the game is unbalanced at this point.

 

[LAnkou]

I can't see how firaxis could explain why slavery is "as good" as emancipation. that would be saying that nowadays, slavery is a good option for government...

Of course the final civics choice are better, but since you find them later on, there is no problem

When you're a warmonger, you would prefer have communism from the beginning but it is only at the end of the game you discover it....it follows history!!!

 

[Lord_all_Mighty]

I can't see how firaxis could explain why slavery is "as good" as emancipation. that would be saying that nowadays, slavery is a good option for government...

While we don't know how powerful these effects are, emancipation gives civs without it less happiness thus penalizing those who want to continue with slavery/ serfdom. This should in effect keep civs out of everything except for emancipation in the late game unless they can afford it.

 

[WoundedKnight]

Obark wrote: "the +2 gold per Town and no upkeep make it totally broken versus other civics."

Yeah, in your vast experience of zero games.

Isn't this getting a little silly? I appreciate that one can from limited preorder information one can form ideas about how various aspects of gameplay may work, but claiming that the game is "broken" without ever playing it -- and, with much of the civilopedia still unrevealed -- is ludicrous.

 

[Distraction]

Well, if it goes Cottage -> Hamlet -> Village -> Town, then you may n ot be seeing very many towns. So, I think it would be a bit balanced.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I agree with Kolpo when he says 'a choice where only one choice is best is no choice at all'-or something there-abouts. The great thing with the Social Engineering system in SMAC was that it was VERY WELL balanced. For instance, Police State was fantastic for war, but it hurt your efficiency and economy. Of course, unlike Civ3 governments, a police state could try and counter-balance the penalty with an appropriate economic civic (like Free Trade). However, that economic civic had its own counter-balancing penalty, and so it goes on. My point is that a good civic system should be about the need to compromise-where no choice is BEST or WORST, just best for some things, OK for others and WORST for the rest. Even if representation had a high maintainance cost I would be cool with it, because this reflects the need to have parliamentarians and elections etc etc. My main point is that there should never be an ULTIMATE civic choice.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Zurai]

Except that SMAC *did* have ultimate choices. For example, the Hive had no penalties for Police State - making it better than the other choices 75% or more of the time.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yes, but Ultimate only for a single faction and-even then-not in all circumstances. I would have no objection, for instance, if police state was the best choice-with almost no exceptions-for aggressive/expansive leader types, but very poor (poorer than normal) for spiritual/creative leader types.
Its just that-all other things being equal-no civic choice should be absolutely perfect, with no drawbacks whatsoever.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Shynji]

Could y'all post the link to where you are finding this information on the Freedom of Speech civic? Both Civfanatics and Apolyton have nothing on it.

 

[Shynji]

Some Civics seem to be horribly unbalanced. Take Free Speech for example: +100% culture (which I can accept, there are several +100% culture wonders in the game). AND

+2 gold per Town AND no upkeep. Talk about over powered. Most cities I've seen have at least 5 towns in their city radius - thats +10 gold per city, at no upkeep cost.

Actually, according to Apolyton, that would be a giant OR, not an AND.

Nationhood = +100% Culture
Freedom of Speech = ?

I have no idea where you are pulling this stuff out of dude. Please enlighten me.

http://civilization4.net/3/114/143/

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Try the latest screenshots from IGN.com-they have an almost complete list of all the civics AND they show Representation and Freedom of Speech.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Ex Mudder]

Could y'all post the link to where you are finding this information on the Freedom of Speech civic? Both Civfanatics and Apolyton have nothing on it.

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/620513/img_3125189.html

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Perhaps the screen shot that we are looking at with all the civics displayed and their upkeep is a screenshot of a civilization possesing the "organized" trait... That would explain the lower or non existant maintainaince costs of the civics displayed. Just a thought...

 

[remconius]

My feeling about civics is that it will be similar to the governments, but with more variety.

The first option in each category is basically despotism and thus used until you get something better. The second (and maybe the third) level is a great improvement, and viable but probably not maintainable later on (like slavery).

Level 5, 4, and maybe 3 are more or less equal alternatives allowing you to focus your game on war, peace, science, happiness, culture and such things.

I am hoping for the end game you'll have 2 or 3 options in each category to help your playing style.

 

[aahz_capone]

I'm quite satisfied with how civics has been implemented. I am almost sure that at one point or another a patch will modify a civic to have one more gold or less or whatever, because hey, who really thinks they will be perfectly balanced first time around? But this is not a bad thing: tweaking is progress.

And remember: according to the screens there is more than enough space for new civic options and even techs and perhaps religions! Which means that expansions will give more options!!! Muhhahahhahaaa!!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One point, Towns already make something like 6 Gold, so adding 2 isn't That big of an effect

 

[AKauhanen]

I can't see how firaxis could explain why slavery is "as good" as emancipation. that would be saying that nowadays, slavery is a good option for government...

Of course the final civics choice are better, but since you find them later on, there is no problem

When you're a warmonger, you would prefer have communism from the beginning but it is only at the end of the game you discover it....it follows history!!!

Slaves are the cheapest workforce. Ever improving technology and machinery does take a lot away from the benefit of slavery, but it is still by far the cheapest forms of human labor. The moral negative effect of slavery is a ever growing factor as the living standards and level of technology improves in the nation and only the most harsh police states can still keep slavery in the modern world as population unhappiness increases to the point of civil strife. Slavery is still practiced in Africa. The reason why slavery has not been abandoned is precisely because it is the cheapest form of labor. As African nations industrialize we can only hope that they will abandon slavery, but at the moment the elite there seem to view the moral side effect smaller than the production benefit.

To be fair I should mention that Africa is not the only place where there is slavery. China has 20 million prisoners in it's jails who are forced to work for their food. It hard to compete with this level of salary. Also cheap Chinese workers are working for near slave wages and as our government and society moves more toward neo-capitalism and neo-liberalism our nations worker's salaries will even more and more resemble slave wages after housing, food and the most lowest education costs are reduced. In fact you could say that there is slavery in the USA even today and ever increasingly in the rest of Europe as well. And it's only getting worse. And our capitalist masters and government will continue doing this as long as the negative effects in population unhappiness gets too big. It's our own fault we haven't risen up against this robbery and treatment sooner.

 

[apatheist]

Slavery is a cheap form of labor, but there are also economic arguments against it as well as the moral ones. The labor may be cheap, but having a large class of terribly poor people with few or no rights means that any potential economic markets are small. Strong economies are built on a strong middle class. Furthermore, slavery's advantage in giving access to cheap labor isn't so advantageous when it comes to the complex jobs of a more modern non-agrarian economy. The more complicated the task, the more engaged you have to be in its doing, which means you have to derive some satisfaction from it. Being a slave would make any such satisfaction nearly impossible to attain. That's not to say the moral arguments aren't sufficient to eliminate the practice, merely that it's also a short-sighted practice from a purely practical perspective as well.

 

[AKauhanen]

Slavery is a cheap form of labor, but there are also economic arguments against it as well as the moral ones. The labor may be cheap, but having a large class of terribly poor people with few or no rights means that any potential economic markets are small. Strong economies are built on a strong middle class. Furthermore, slavery's advantage in giving access to cheap labor isn't so advantageous when it comes to the complex jobs of a more modern non-agrarian economy. The more complicated the task, the more engaged you have to be in its doing, which means you have to derive some satisfaction from it. Being a slave would make any such satisfaction nearly impossible to attain. That's not to say the moral arguments aren't sufficient to eliminate the practice, merely that it's also a short-sighted practice from a purely practical perspective as well.

As a whole economical growth will suffer because of slavery, but more because of the destroyed middle class than straight from the low consumption level of slaves. Your dish washing machine consumes practically nothing, but it would bring no benefit for the economy if your dish washing machine would consume more. In fact it would be harmful for the economy if the dish washing machines would consume even more, but if all the jobs the middle classes used to work would be taken by slaves or slave wage third world immigrants, then the middle classes will be destroyed and in the end game even the former middle classes will have to compete with slaves or slave wage workers and the wages fall even lower and so even more middle class workers lose their jobs to lower wage workers and this continues till in the end the whole middle class is destroyed. So the people who formerly started their own businesses, worked their own shops and workshops, created new innovated ideas in hope of success and invested their money is gone.

Imported slaves or imported dish washing machines don't in themselves straight harm the economy or lower consumption, but as they get the jobs from the middle class then investment, innovation and maximum level of consumption will start to fall. I disapprove of slavery because it is wrong toward a other human being and how it's wrong to the middle class and so to the whole economy, but I do understand the economical benefit the few gain from owning the slaves and not having to pay livable wages to the middle class and so understand why it's a civic in civilization. It does lower economic growth and the innovation rate, but it does have a significant benefit to the few in the short term and so why they are now pushing our nations forward to this new age of slavery and serfdom. The Civic slavery maybe called a new fancy name in the 21th century, but the media masters and their puppets in power are moving our nations and the world to this new age of serfdom and if we don't move in to resistance, then one day we will wake up and realize, that for all practical reasons, we are slaves in the nations our forefathers build.

 

[Shynji]

Well, looks like they changed the values judging from the new shots. Never saw that one before.