[R&F] Unclear production multipliers

[Ansive]

Hello

I am building Apadana
253/600

Harvesting stone:
- reported as 162
- actually gained was 231 (484/600)

I have:
+ 5% amenities
+ 10% autocracy
+ 15% corvee
+ magnus in city (shouldn't matter, I believe only chop base value is modified)

The chop awarded an extra 42% production.
Now, I don't know how these multipliers work
- if they are additive it would be 30% -> 126+36%*126=163.8 (off by 15.2 production)
- if they are multiplicative it would be 1*1.05*1.1*1.15 = 1.328 (32.8% still way off of 42%)

Can anyone explain what I'm missing?


Here's the save file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a82tse8ukjzp7cx/xPOUNDMAKER 132 725 BC apadana.zip?dl=0

 

[Boyan_Sun]

Hi, I'll try to explain:

• Amenities multiplier is only for city yield, which will display on city panel. so it won't apply to chop value.
• Corvee & autocracy are all multipliers for speed production, they won't display on city panel, so they all apply to chop value.
• Autocracy is very special. Other multipliers are all additive, but autocracy is multiplicative. So the actual multiplier is 1.1 * 1.3 = 1.43.
• But corvee only provide +15%, so that 15% left, I guess, is from the bonus of Brussels.
• The final chop value will be 162 * 1.43 = 231.66, then round down to 231.

 

[Ansive]

Hmm, but I have no Brussels revealed in my game.

I just tried removing a plot of stone without Magnus in the same city, the wonder gained exactly the chop production * 25%. (I have -10% production due to happiness but you said it does not matter for harvesting)
Maybe Magnus has a hidden production modifier/multiplier for wonders... (I was also getting 19 production per turn in the city instead of the expected 17 when Magnus was in the city - the reported base was 13.6)

 

[Boyan_Sun]

the wonder gained exactly the chop production * 25%

Could you provide the exact value? Amenities really won't affect chopping value, I'm quite sure.

I know another hidden multiplier from Kilwa: +15% prod to city yield, also +15% speed production, multiplicative. That is a bug. In your game is Kilwa built by anyone? OK I will download the save file and try to find it out.


Edit: I found it was due to Corvee. If you remove this policy card, the multiplier will be 1.1, otherwise it is 1.43. ( city yield: 13.6 * 1.1 = 15, 13.6 * 1.43 = 19; chop value: 162 * 1.1 = 178 actually 177, 162 * 1.43 = 231. No matter where Magnus is )

So Corvee was actually +30% to wonders


Edit2: Ah I found the reason. In R&F they changed the implementation of +15% to wonders policy to eras relative, then they deleted nearly all +15% to separate wonders in scripts. But they forgot to delete Apadana and Mausoleum. So these 2 wonders will get +30% from Corvee in current version.

 

[liv]

Nice sleuthing.

 

[Ansive]

Wow, thank you for clarifying that.

I hate it when I break out an excel sheet an the numbers don't add up.

Should I make a bug report?

 

[Boyan_Sun]

Sure, but I don't think officials will notice. The bug I most wanted to fix as soon as possible was that overflow science and culture will always be cleared by any source of immediate incomes, like Eureka or great scientists, but it was ignored, although I found it was reported many times.

 

[Ansive]

That's depressing... what I most wanted to be fixed was the production overflow from policies. Limes + 1 turn wall + chop -> insane production overflow into anything you want.
Still not fixed to this day, so I just stopped abusing it, no more building walls and galleys before chopping. I'll only chop if I'm making multiple ships or units which all benefit from the policy bonus.

I'll make a bug report anyway... they might get to it one day.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

Limes + 1 turn wall + chop -> insane production overflow into anything you want.

This one may already be a feature I'm afraid... To be honest, this bug is really easy to fix, but they just keep it, for a very long time, from the vanilla Civ4 version to now right? In Civ5 it was also exist, and was not fixed. In early Civ6 they had fixed part of it - at the beginning, this overflow will be multiplied by next project's scalar again and again, so in first patch of 2016 they changed it to only applying previous scalar once. So they may not treat it as a bug. That's why we all use it widely in speed play as an advanced micro-operation. But of course, I will be also glad to see it finally fixed.

 

[ZubieMaster]

But they forgot to delete Apadana and Mausoleum. So these 2 wonders will get +30% from Corvee in current version.

Mm-hm. "Forgot". So many sad things about this thread. Kudos to @Boyan_Sun for solving the mystery.

 

[Ansive]

I got a nice reply from support stating that they understood and confirmed the corvee bug and that it will be forwarded to the dev team. Cheers.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

I got a nice reply from support stating that they understood and confirmed the corvee bug and that it will be forwarded to the dev team. Cheers.

Wow... Wonderful. So you can contact the support team? I really wonder how they think about these overflow bugs/exploits/mechanisms.

1. Overflow production, that can be scaled by previous policies and do not recover. (widely used as an exploit)
2. Overflow science/culture, that will always cleared by Eureka/inspirations, or other source of one-time science/culture like looting. (very serious bugs that you have to avoid in order to play the game well)
3. Overflow food, that will only grow your pop by 1, then left 1 food for next pop growth, other food will be wasted. (this is probably a mechanism, but it also causes us to calculate accurately and avoid waste when harvesting)

All these issues have been existed since the first edition of 2016 and have not been addressed yet.