Unique Unit Shelf Life

[dh_epic]

I know it's a small detail, but maybe the effects of unique units shouldn't be just until you find the next tech. Some unique units become obsolete too fast, and I think it happens more often with some than with others.

Instead of making them last for one tech, they might last for multiple techs.

e.g.: instead of Jaguar Warriors being the replacement for warriors, they replace Warriors and Legions.

e.g.: instead of Musketeers replacing Musketmen, they replace Musketmen and Riflemen.

The naming is a detail I don't really care about. Let's just call them "Jaguar Legions" and "Rifleteers" for arguments sake. But the idea being that unique units now have a larger window of opportunity to make their impact. A window that isn't quickly shut by the accelerating tech race, which hurts some civs more than others.

 

[Harald]

Interesting idea and I agree that some UUs get obsolete to fast. Perhaps there could be a minor uppgrade once you reach the second unit it is supposed to replace. The reason I feel there need to be a minor uppgrade is that the UU might become to weak/powerfull compared to both the units it replace.

 

[slyda]

maybe you could ake this idea further and sorta apply it to other units like having small advances in other units. like the US tanks in Iraq would easily beat the iraqi tanks as they have technology on thei side, or maybe the invention of the clock which works at sea (by the British) in frigates could increase movement points.

 

[RFHolloway]

Could be handled by having 2 UU's, some might upgrade (e.g a gallic warrior into a Gallic swordsman) But others might not (a British man of war, and the red jacketed rifleman)

 

[sealman]

Could be handled by having 2 UU's, some might upgrade (e.g a gallic warrior into a Gallic swordsman) But others might not (a British man of war, and the red jacketed rifleman)

Didn't the British Riflemen wear Green Jackets and the regular line infantry/muskets were the traditional red?

 

[dh_epic]

I think the sequence is important. I like the window of opportunity phenomenon in Civ 3 UUs. The idea that once you discover the tech that gets you that unit, the clock is counting down on your opportunity to use it. So I'd rather have one slightly larger window of opportunity than two seperate windows of opportunity.

I guess what I'm saying is really two UUs, but they should be descendants.

Jaguar warriors are warriors++, and upgrade to Jaguar spearmen that are spearmen++, if maybe a slightly lesser bonus for the second UU than the first. As if the power / benefits of the technology wane gradually, instead of being crushed into obsolescence.

 

[Khan Quest]

Great idea. We'd have to figure out what to do about dead-end UUs like Cossacks.

 

[ybbor]

one small note that i'd just like to add. if you haven't had your golden age, you can still build your UU, and the unit it would upgrade too (i.e. i;m the french and haven't had a golden age, i get a load of gold, and decide to ugrade all my musketeers to infantry (because i skipped nationalism). right after i think oh no! what have i done!?! then i just go to build order, and see my musketeer is ready to be built in the case of a needed golden age) it might be nice however in civ IV to expand this so the UU can be built at all times, even after its 'obsolete'

 

[sir_schwick]

How about we extend this whole concept and introduce more intermediate unit forms. This way military advantage is not the same for those with just Iron Working vs. those with Iron Working, Construction, Horseback Riding.

 

[dh_epic]

I'd love to see intermediate unit forms -- like arming your warriors with spears, or putting your spearmen on horses. Is that what you mean? I have no idea what the mechanism would look like, however.

 

[sir_schwick]

More like the evolution of Units between the broad categories. There should be evolution of Warrior gradually, gaining better melee weapons until they become the Swordsmen. Chariots would gradually evolve to better forms. Horsemen would eventually keep getting better weapons and armour until they became Knights. Knights would get more weapons and eventually firearms until they became Cavalry. Tanks would start weak and eventually be upgraded bit by bit until the Modern Armour.

 

[douche_bag]

I know it's a small detail, but maybe the effects of unique units shouldn't be just until you find the next tech. Some unique units become obsolete too fast, and I think it happens more often with some than with others.

Instead of making them last for one tech, they might last for multiple techs.

e.g.: instead of Jaguar Warriors being the replacement for warriors, they replace Warriors and Legions.

e.g.: instead of Musketeers replacing Musketmen, they replace Musketmen and Riflemen.

The naming is a detail I don't really care about. Let's just call them "Jaguar Legions" and "Rifleteers" for arguments sake. But the idea being that unique units now have a larger window of opportunity to make their impact. A window that isn't quickly shut by the accelerating tech race, which hurts some civs more than others.

I was thinking of something like this,like the aztec jaguar warrior should be availible after warrior code and should be as strong as medeivil infantry (4.2.1) scince the aztecs never really had medevil infantry and they also have a really stong unit to dominate with in the earlier ages.another one is the zulu impi.That should become obsolete after nationalism because impi's were still used in the 1800's and their stats should be 4.2.2 .There is a lot of uu's that become obsolete way too fast,so i agree

 

[Mewtarthio]

That would become redundant. The Persian Immortals have exactly the same stats as your proposed Jaguar Warriors. The proposed Impi are too overpowered, and the only reason they were in use during the 1800s is that the Africans were far behind the Imperial powers technologically.

 

[dh_epic]

We don't want to get carried away and have a unit last across ages... but to have a significant window within an age is the merit. Instead of replacing one unit, you replace two consecutive units, just so that the unit doesn't run out as soon as you're done building it.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Just because the UUs aren't modern any more doesn't make them useless.

Jaguar Warriors are still useful as scouts, sentries and fast attackers even after you can build Archers, and even through to Horsemen and Swordsmen - if you use them properly. French Musketeers have 5 defense for 60 shields. Riflemen are 6 defense for 80 shields. If you take cost-effectiveness into account, Musketeers are more efficient than Riflemen.

UUs may not be the prime unit forever, but they all still have different uses, even after more modern units replace them. I see no problems with the current scheme of things.

 

[sir_schwick]

Are you sure about the French Musketeers being 5 defense? When I checked the Units section it has FM listed with 4 defence. If that is true, then FM are not that useful. Is it different in C3C.

 

[Jon Shafer]

In Conquests Musketeers are 2/5/1. I consider Conquests the "ultimate" version since things were properly balanced (or better-balanced, anyways) than in previous Civs.

 

[dh_epic]

I still don't think that's enough. But hey, that's just me.

 

[BkGreatWarnut]

I think the whold idea of a unit becoming out dated is to better represent that civ's play in the game when compared with their actual history. The Zulu's Impi are a bad example as they were used merely because they had NO technology. However, every other unit is associated with a time frame in history in which that particular civ was especially strong. This simulates Rome becoming strong after the middle of the ancient age to the end because of Legionary, the British becoming strong at the end of the Middle Ages, Germany becoming strong at the end of the Industrial Ages, and America's strength entering the Modern Age. I feel they shouldn't be changed because the whole point is if you have a certain unit that launches a modern age, you should use it!

 

[dh_epic]

I agree that there shouldn't be units that last an entire age, or multiple unique units.

But to have a better "halflife" on the unit might keep the historical accuracy while making gameplay more fun and balanced. Basically, stretching the unique bonus for one more tech (before or after). Some units last long enough, but others run out quite quickly. Babylon bowmen are great, but find themselves pretty useless pretty quickly.