unit-promotion balance thread

[Deadstarre]

In a nutshell, I dislike the attack range promotion - everything about it sings of imbalance.

Agreed, though i'd also be sad to see it depart.

Would including range as a promotion, but decreasing combat strength only when utilizing that range (distance penalty) be a fair compromise? It could be as little as half damage for attacking to the max distance tile

The more i think about this, the more it makes sense in every way. It would actually bring this promotion to where it should be- useful, but not OP or heavily exploitable. Just don't know if its something that could actually be implemented

 

[Gidoza]

Agreed, though i'd also be sad to see it depart.

Would including range as a promotion, but decreasing combat strength only when utilizing that range (distance penalty) be a fair compromise? It could be as little as half damage for attacking to the max distance tile

The more i think about this, the more it makes sense in every way. It would actually bring this promotion to where it should be- useful, but not OP or heavily exploitable. Just don't know if its something that could actually be implemented

I like the idea, but worry about how the AI would manage with it.

Anyways, I'm not overly opposed to range promotion being on SOME units, but certainly it DOESN'T make sense on some others: Archer units I would exclude, but Horse Archers I wouldn't (could make an argument on that one that they're running into the next hex and running back for the attack - makes them a little more useful). Battleships I'd rather avoid giving range promotion because they're so insane with it, and Missile Cruisers seem so ridiculously OP compared to everything with range bonus that I don't even want to think about them. Those are the ones I'd be picking out of the group. The rest are OK I think.

 

[Deadstarre]

First let me say i love Reconnaissance- this is a needed mechanic. Without it getting deeper into the promotion line with 5CS Scouts is a major pain in the arse and/or undoable, it used to suck.

With it i think the scout promotion lines were in need of a rework as well though. Survivalism is awful, and the +1 visibility promotion line is too strong - this amounts to not much of a choice at all right now. Survivalism scouts will be useful for a very brief time (and Survivalism III melee withdraw is the worst; you cant protect workers from enemies) but the scouts with +2 visibility and maybe even +1 movement are going to be useful until the entire map is cleared and then some. Buff and nerf suggestions incoming

Also just needed to say I know that everybody hates seeing "Fog of War" on their map- we want it all visible and clear asap so probably lots of people are content in the current "Scouting" promotion line. Undiscovered spots represent a hindrance equally to the AI and the Player so uncovering them benefits everybody in just about every way- thats why its easy to see how they've been a little marginalized. Remember though that getting 2 promotions on a scout (and that +2 visibility) did not use to be a regular or easy thing at all. Super-Scouts are a wee bit too common at the moment.


My suggestion is to replace the scouts early promotion line with this:


Survivalism I- +5 hp healed per turn outside of friendly territory and +%25 defense
Survivalism II- Unit heals every turn even if it performs an action (like "march")
Survivalism III- +1 Movement point


This line makes them useful against barbs and guarantees their success in pestering enemy civs as well. They'll probably be able to take out a barb camp containing only an archer by their lonesome if they have the first 2 promotions. I see that as a good thing- a survivalism scout shouldn't be so useless in combat that it can't take down 1 archer at close range. Bonus: Explorers will have some redeeming combat quality =)


Scouting I- +1 Visibility
Scouting II- See options below
Scouting III- +1 Visibility


Need that +2 visibility (massive difference) walled behind the 3rd promotion- attainable but not easy to get and having no bonus movement in this line is key- it's just overkill.

Few good ideas here for 2nd promotion though-

Scouting II- *The ability to enter unfriendly territory without open borders, taking dmg if ending turn there (-25 or even -50hp from unfriendly locals)

*This is like Attrition but I believe there was/is a mountain crossing promotion with same damage effect if ending turn on mountain- something close to it should already be in the code?


If thats problematic for any list of reasons (i know the AI has it too) I'd say go for this-

Scouting II- Can now see past obstacles (the "indirect fire" of visibility)


If thats a problem as well will have to really put my thinking cap on to find some balance in the 2nd promotion. I'd say a situational movement point bonus if theres no other good options =/

 

[Deadstarre]

Since my last unit promotion suggestion got such a massive response (both for, and against!) i have another one =)

this concerns melee +% when attacking fortified units- half of the Drill promotion. the other half of it is fine, +%20 to cities makes some sense and though i always find a better way to take cities than relying on my melee units city CS to take them, im not going to argue it's a valid choice.

the problem with +% to attacking fortified units is that the AI does not know how to fortify as part of their game plan. you will never invade an AI city where they have well positioned melee units stuck in fortify, impeding your progress while archers and city bombards do damage. the AI largely only knows attacking or running. if an attack makes sense, they do it. if it doesn't, theyll clear out so they can heal and come back to attack you later. they just don't fortify

i don't presume this kind of ai behavior can or should be changed, so perhaps this half of the drill promotion is what needs looking at. I dont know about you guys but as it stands i almost never choose drill and every time i have, where i thought i found the right situation where the city bonus could be useful i just end up regretting it and wishing i had Shock instead. Shock is -always- useful. The AI takes drill routinely though and it's always a relief to notice Drill on enemy units because i know it's basically worthless for them most of the time

i'm not gonna bother with a suggestion on what this half of the drill promotion should be, i'd like to hear others thoughts on this one if possible though. Does anyone ever take drill and feel good about the choice? (it does help for clearing barb camps about half of the time, i'll give it that)

 

[Funak]

The AI takes drill routinely though and it's always a relief to notice Drill on enemy units because i know it's basically worthless for them most of the time

Drill is usually pretty good vs me because I like to fortify my units

On the rest of your post, I still agree with you, Drill is just not very good vs the AI. I would once again suggest a bonus for fortifying or something similar(but then again I supposed the AI does not fortify so it wouldn't help them). I just don't know.

 

[Gidoza]

Does having a unit on "Alert" instead of "Fortify" qualify as fortifying, or are they different?

 

[Strigvir]

They are the same, except the former will wake up the unit once it takes damage/spot an enemy.

 

[Gidoza]

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[Kolaris]

Drill is useful very early on at clearing Barbarians, but I agree something more is needed. A bonus while Fortified sounds fine to me.

Also, is Charge II actually a thing? My units with Charge I don't seem to qualify.

 

[Funak]

Also, is Charge II actually a thing? My units with Charge I don't seem to qualify.

You can check the requirements in the civpedia.

 

[Kolaris]

Looking at this list a Fortify Bonus isn't a thing, unfortunately.

And the only requirement for Charge II should be Charge I, thus my confusion.

 

[Kolaris]

Blitz must have Drill III?

Is this to balance out that Shock is stronger? Or should it qualify for Blitz as well?

 

[Funak]

Blitz must have Drill III?

Is this to balance out that Shock is stronger? Or should it qualify for Blitz as well?

I'm fairly sure that shock should qualify for blitz as well, so this is probably a bug.

 

[mikes61293]

Right now bombers must purchase siege 1 before air targeting 1. It seems to me that these 2 promotions should be available from the start; just like shock and drill or, accuracy and barrage.

 

[JungleBucks]

Concerning scouts dead end and useless marines:

In my games I moved marines one tech down to electronics, made them weaker (60 instead of 65) and gave them the ignore terrain cost promotion. There is still quite a gap, but now scouts upgrade to marines, then to paratroopers and finally xcom.

This is much more fun for me. I often had some elite scouts around that did not manage to find bows in ruins. Now these veterans of survival in foreign lands become the special forces of modern times.

I mentioned this in another thread involving the concept of adding a spy plane, but I really wish Paratroopers kept their sight promotions from scouts. Losing my sight advantages when upgrading to a paratrooper was unfortunate, and I could imagine that high level of vision giving someone a great advantage when entering foreign cities via paradrop.

 

[qqqbbb]

Why was blitz removed from shock branch?