Unit Target Quotas

Provolution

Sage of Quatronia
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Unit Target Quotas

I know I was ridiculed for force composition detail planning of unit quotas as Military Minister in DGV. I also know that the criticism was speculative, pejorative and politically motivated. However, in this DG, where we actually have set a quota for the number of cities, we are even more in a position where conscience and planning is needed for selecting what type of workforce and military Fanatikos should have.

I have the following idea what people may want for military security:

3 Hoplites per city, 15 Hoplites, cost 300 shields total
2 workers per city, 10 workers, cost 100 shields total
1 catapult per city, 5 catapults, cost 100 shields total
2 swordsmen per city, 10 swordsmen, cost 300 shields
1 Horseman per city, 5 horsemen, cost 150 shields
1 archer per city, 5 horsemen, cost 100 shields

I would consider 50 units the peak of what 5 cities could possibly handle, and
this should only be a number we can carry economically based on upkeep.

Despotism: 20 units Free Upkeep
Republic: 5 units Free Upkeep

We would still need to produce more than 30 gold per turn on the very minimum, possibly 45 gold, and then not be capable of funding too many upgrades, unless we do some tech trading and wine trading. Then we must ask ourselves, do we REALLY need libraries if we are to zero out luxuries for some hundred years, as we got the Great Library?

the answer is no, we do not need libraries, and should rather have more temples for culture, stability and land, and markets to fund the commercial development. Libraries are useless here.

WONDERS

We may also consider what real investments could benefit our nation.
Long term, having built our workers and needed military units in Olympus, which is some 8 workers or so and some 5-10 additional military units away, we may consider the Mausolleum of Mausollos in Olympus, as this wheatbasked badly needs happiness as it grows very fast.

Styx should get Great Lighthouse, as this wonder give us seafaring vessels ancient age, which is critical in finding other civs and make our Great Library more effective.

Augean Stables should possibly get a wonder as well, being inland and all that , and should possibly have Great Wall, as that would reduce our military costs, place undestroyable city walls until metallurgy and reduce our expenses by 1 gold per city.

Priapos should have Colossus, leveraging trade bonuses from gold, river, fisheries, wines and ocean, and boost our gold assets to fund army upgrades, diplomacy and cash rushes.



Roles:

Olympus: Population Center, Mausolleum
Civatonia: Research Center, Great Library
Styx: Maritime Center, Great Lighthouse
Augean Stables, Military Center, Great Wall
Priapos, Financial Center, Colossus
 
Provolution!

This is a very good idea that I will be inclined to support. Making the cites tehir own specific roles is a great idea. Libraries should not be used as of yet because they take up our wealth and as we will have low science they will serve little purpose. Temples will increase culture as well as happiness, which is good.
 
No way! Where will we come up with enough shields for this? In a 5CC, you have to balance production.

TGLighthouse: No, we don't need it. A few suicide galleys will do in reaching the other continent. This wonders runs out all too soon, and we don't have a use for naval units until we wipe out our continent.

Colossus: Possibly, but I bet the AIs are already started on this and will get to it before we do (the city isn't even built yet, is it?). We need to develop this as a commercial city without the Colossus (library / market / habor).

Mausoleum: No - 1 city benefits, and only 3 happy people? Build a cathedral.

Great Wall: No - we have no need for walls. Once you get to size 7 or above, which our cities will fairly soon, walls are worthless. Barbarians will be gone soon enough by the time this is built. Why would it save us in military costs??

For the proposed 1,000 shield cost of this project, we could instead build 33 HORSEMEN OR SWORDSMEN and conquer the other nations.

3 Hoplites per city? Way too many. 2 at max. The best defense is a good offense. 1 archer? These are useless. Can't even effectively take out a spear. 1 move only. Spend 10 more shields for retreat ability and 1 more move with a horse or the same amount of shields with a catapult. This eliminates losses and keeps more of our troops alive. With only 5 cities, we don't have much production capability vs. 7 AIs.

Temples are worthless. For 5 gpt and 300 shields, we only get 5 happy citizens. We are better off using the luxury slider and getting more bang for our buck.

Icmancin: Libraries take up our wealth? Fact check: they cost the same in gpt, and save us 20 shields, as we are scientific. We will have low science? Fact check: LIBRARIES INCREASE SCIENCE. Temples do not. Refer to above paragraph. Temples will increase culture? Fact check: Libraries give 1 more culture per turn and are 20 shields cheaper. Temples have a 30 shield to culture point ratio. Libraries have and 13.3 ratio. That is over 50% more culture and 33% cheaper.

Let's eliminate 1000 shields of wonders and 100 (20 shields saved * 5) shields of temples to libraries and gain money by using the luxury slider instead. Let's eliminate worthless units and save 100 shields of archers. Let's not be greedy. We have limited production compared to the AI which gets a production BONUS. This plan costs 1,200 shields too many.
 
I think many of us supports a targeted and constructive One Wonder - One City policy, and acquire these wonders for city specific needs, not the whole continent as such.
Glad you agree Styx is the best Great Lighthouse candidate. And we sure need that extra water movement to find the remaining civs to boost our Great Library.
 
Of all the wonders listed these I agree with:

Olympus: Mausolleum
Civatonia: Great Library
Augean Stables, Great Wall

I really don't see the need for the Great Lighthouse, as we don't really have to explore all over the place. I think we should hold to a more defensive and isolationist policy, i.e not many boats.

I would like to have the Colussus, but I agree with GA, the AI's have probably already started on them and there is no chance we could catch up on Emperor.

Ginger_Ale said:
3 Hoplites per city? Way too many. 2 at max. The best defense is a good offense. 1 archer? These are useless. Can't even effectively take out a spear. 1 move only. Spend 10 more shields for retreat ability and 1 more move with a horse or the same amount of shields with a catapult. This eliminates losses and keeps more of our troops alive. With only 5 cities, we don't have much production capability vs. 7 AIs.

I totally disagree with the paragraph. I think 3 Hoplites will be a great idea. That is the type of defensive power we will need to keep our nation alive. I find archers are extremely useful for defensive bombardment. Getting at free shot at our enemies before the actual battle begins could be huge. I don't think horses will be that useful either, only against barbs. I think we should take defensive approaches to war, and Horses aren't good for defense.
 
Ginger_Ale said:
No way! Where will we come up with enough shields for this? In a 5CC, you have to balance production.

TGLighthouse: No, we don't need it. A few suicide galleys will do in reaching the other continent. This wonders runs out all too soon, and we don't have a use for naval units until we wipe out our continent.

Colossus: Possibly, but I bet the AIs are already started on this and will get to it before we do (the city isn't even built yet, is it?). We need to develop this as a commercial city without the Colossus (library / market / habor).

Mausoleum: No - 1 city benefits, and only 3 happy people? Build a cathedral.

Great Wall: No - we have no need for walls. Once you get to size 7 or above, which our cities will fairly soon, walls are worthless. Barbarians will be gone soon enough by the time this is built. Why would it save us in military costs??

For the proposed 1,000 shield cost of this project, we could instead build 33 HORSEMEN OR SWORDSMEN and conquer the other nations.

3 Hoplites per city? Way too many. 2 at max. The best defense is a good offense. 1 archer? These are useless. Can't even effectively take out a spear. 1 move only. Spend 10 more shields for retreat ability and 1 more move with a horse or the same amount of shields with a catapult. This eliminates losses and keeps more of our troops alive. With only 5 cities, we don't have much production capability vs. 7 AIs.

Temples are worthless. For 5 gpt and 300 shields, we only get 5 happy citizens. We are better off using the luxury slider and getting more bang for our buck.

Icmancin: Libraries take up our wealth? Fact check: they cost the same in gpt, and save us 20 shields, as we are scientific. We will have low science? Fact check: LIBRARIES INCREASE SCIENCE. Temples do not. Refer to above paragraph. Temples will increase culture? Fact check: Libraries give 1 more culture per turn and are 20 shields cheaper. Temples have a 30 shield to culture point ratio. Libraries have and 13.3 ratio. That is over 50% more culture and 33% cheaper.

Let's eliminate 1000 shields of wonders and 100 (20 shields saved * 5) shields of temples to libraries and gain money by using the luxury slider instead. Let's eliminate worthless units and save 100 shields of archers. Let's not be greedy. We have limited production compared to the AI which gets a production BONUS. This plan costs 1,200 shields too many.


This was not a plan, if you did not get it, but the very maximum scope we could choose from, a toolbox, now we need to set priorities.
 
greekguy said:
I totally disagree with the paragraph. I think 3 Hoplites will be a great idea. That is the type of defensive power we will need to keep our nation alive. I find archers are extremely useful for defensive bombardment. Getting at free shot at our enemies before the actual battle begins could be huge. I don't think horses will be that useful either, only against barbs. I think we should take defensive approaches to war, and Horses aren't good for defense.

In a 5CC, you don't let the AIs come to you. You go to them, hence the need for a 'defensive power we need to keep our nation alive' is not important. And like I just said, archers are better off replaced with a catapult so they can have offensive bombard too. 2 attack, 1 defense, and 1 move is barely better than a warrior. Use the catapult to offensively bombard the AI's units.
 
"In a 5 CC..." You talk to us as we should be drooling idiots. We have had this game for how many years, and we know enough about the game parameters to make our own judgements, and Civ, whatever game parameters we put in place, have endless possibilities. If we sat down and ate everything raw of what you "gurus" told us, we would have no real discussion of where the game should go, and I could as well play singleplayer. That the roleplaying goes down the drain with this "guruship" is another dimension Daveshack tried to remedy, but that our Civ-skills are demoted because of "5 CC industrial standards" from some GOTM, SGOTM communities, is not something we really want. Please let us have an open ended discussion on where to go, and please do not pigeonhole us.
 
Olympus: Mausolleum

This is probably the best bet of the pending wonders listed here.

Civatonia: Great Library

Locked, stocked and ready to go. :D

Styx: Great Lighthouse

Depends how quickly we can get Styx up and running.

Augean Stables: Great Wall

No way. I plan to have many of our cities up to Size 7 before too long (if my plans are not handcuffed by self-serving Wonder interests) ;) If things get scary before then, we can build walls for 20 gold.

Priapos: Colossus

Honestly don't think we will be able to build it in time, especially since your city is not even founded yet.

In Closing

We need to keep our eyes on the prize, which means individual nurturing of each of our five original cities. If we are roleplaying, then our scientific civ would want Libraries in all of our cities early. Having them also adds versatility, as we will be able to quickly switch gears from commerce to science initiatives with maximum effect.

Waving wonders in front of fledgling cities with no infrastructure is a dirty trick. I urge all governors to think long and hard before buying into such pet projects.
 
Way, WAY too many units on that list. Way too many. Our lands are precious indeed, but the demands on our resources are high, and balance must be maintained. These numbers are ludicrous, as most have seen.

A small defense in each city (1 hoplite), along with a reactive force for defense (more hoplites) and a second reactive force for offense (horsemen/swordsmen) will handle our needs. Add in a small artillery unit, and we're in good shape. Anything more than this is a waste of our resource.

The wonder building plan has some good ideas, and some wishful thinking. We'll get one from our leader. I think that building even one more Ancient Era wonder will be a wonderful accomplishment, two would require great luck. The Maussolleum is a great idea, and one that we should put effort in the future towards building. Not immediately, but soon. All our remaining effort should be towards development of our cities and lands, and exploring for all other civilizations.

-- Ravensfire
 
Listen people, I gave the maximum scope as a reminder that we need to consider force composition in total for the five cities, it was not a plan, but a scope.
 
Provolution said:
"In a 5 CC..." You talk to us as we should be drooling idiots. We have had this game for how many years, and we know enough about the game parameters to make our own judgements, and Civ, whatever game parameters we put in place, have endless possibilities. If we sat down and ate everything raw of what you "gurus" told us, we would have no real discussion of where the game should go, and I could as well play singleplayer. That the roleplaying goes down the drain with this "guruship" is another dimension Daveshack tried to remedy, but that our Civ-skills are demoted because of "5 CC industrial standards" from some GOTM, SGOTM communities, is not something we really want. Please let us have an open ended discussion on where to go, and please do not pigeonhole us.

I am addressing all those that have not played a 5CC before. Not all of us play GOTM, SGOTM, and SGs.
 
Provolution said:
Listen people, I gave the maximum scope as a reminder that we need to consider force composition in total for the five cities, it was not a plan, but a scope.

And people gave feedback and comments on it. Don't be quite so defensive when people don't like your suggestions. You often have direct comments towards the ideas of others.

-- Ravensfire
 
Well, if you really read what I wrote, in place of just attacking it outright, you would see that I was pointing out the peak of what we could handle. However, for the sake of winning an argument in place of finding a solution or assessing options, I think we got different agendas of discussing here. I was opening the floor for considering future force composition, and from that extrapolate what wonders and improvements that may be viable options. The five proposed wonders are also ideals. Now we need to consider the ideals and find the best mix.
 
Provo - reread my post. An alternative plan was presented in there. Perhaps you missed it.

-- Ravensfire
 
Ravensfire, I did not miss your plan, neither did I miss your misplaced insult.
Again, I was referring to a peak level and asked for a force composition, presenting some options. I read your plan very well, and it was agreeable, I did not react to that, but to the unwarranted attack, which had no root in reality.
 
From a modern textbook, far, far into the future:
"After an early phase of rapid expansion, the Greek civilization turned inwards and isolated itself from the rest of mankind. Hiding behind their barricades, the Greeks of the Age of Philosophy, as they themselves called it, built strange monuments to show off the glory and riches of their culture. Nobody knows why they suddenly lost their interest in the world, or what possible use those enormous forbidding constructions could have. Some have hinted at self-destructive strands in Greek culture, but in truth, no-one really knows, and unfortunately the Greeks are no longer there to tell us. After this Greek Golden Age, neighboring tribes wiped them off the face of the earth, and only these mysterious stone monuments remain, like so many mausolea of an entire civilization."

On a more serious note:

units
I could imagine that our force composition will change over time, and depending on need. I'll assume we want a defense force for now.
Initially, hoplites are good. They are cheap and very strong, and the AI cannot handle them well. Two per city sounds about right. Add a flying squad of a few horses, and I think we're fine.
Later on, the balance will shift to horse units. Knights are very good for their time, and hoplites can be phased out by then. Horses will dominate throughout the MA.

Did anyone consider barricades? I never use them (I guess my borders move too quickly :D), but in our case they could be useful as first line of defense.

Somewhere between 5 and 10 workers for the entire civ looks good, They can be merged back into cities if we do not need them. It might be an idea to replace them with immigrant workers over time, if possible. Perhaps our trade minister can look at this.

wonders

It's an interesting idea to have roles for cities, but I agree it may be a bit overambitious. Also, some of these wonders are not very useful.
One-city wonders are relatively good for us. I would prefer to build some wonders, if only to prevent us from falling asleep :). It would be interesting to try to pull off a 5CC (or 5BC or whatever the name is) and build quite a few wonders too. Perhaps it would be fun to make some unusual moves and see what happens.
Wonders have the benefit of not costing upkeep (unlike cathedrals and such :)), which makes them somewhat important for a small economy like ours.
Colossus would be great (especially in combo with Copernicus/Newton), but probably we're too late :sad:.
Mausoleum is my brainchild and I'll defend it to the bitter end :). Besides, Mausollos' body is starting to smell, and something needs to be done. Either get that Mausoleum or import incense quickly.
Great Wall seems somewhat useless as per D_Zoi, Great Lighthouse too as we're not likely to launch an overseas invasion anytime soon.
Hanging gardens could be useful but somewhat expensive, and it will come too early maybe. I think I would aim for Copernicus instead.

Do we have any plans on a Golden Age?
 
Obviously, we would like a different government before entering a golden age. That provides a good reason not to build the Colossus or Great Lighthouse in despotism (Great Library provides scientific, those two provide commercial). Magellan's and Smith's would also provide the commercial half for the golden age (although I'm doubtful we won't have gotten one via war before then).
 
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