Units that you almost never build

[fuddha]

Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

Can someone please explain how to get and use a great general super medic explorer? Thanks!

 

[Solomwi]

Fuddha, you just attach a great general to an explorer, then promote him to Medic III (heals extra 25%, and I prefer adding Morale if I have a promotion left over). As for using him, I like to keep him back from the front line a bit, then at the end of the turn, decide where he'll do the most healing and send him there. Usually this is either healing a stack in the city it took the turn before, or joining a besieging stack at an enemy city, if I don't have the numbers to take it in a single turn. What I really love to do is get a stack of units with March, put a GG-medic with them and roll them into enemy lands to wreak havoc. They'll heal at least 30% even in enemy territory, and since they heal even on the turn they get damaged, they're remarkably resilient.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I don't think separate units cumulate their healing effects. If a separate unit has march, it's only healing for the medic I percentage while moving whereas if you have march on the GG medic, he's healing for the Medic III percentage while moving. I just include march in the promotions for the GG medic. This way, the stack is being healed that much more even while moving.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Can someone please explain how to get and use a great general super medic explorer? Thanks!

Fuddha, you just attach a great general to an explorer, then promote him to Medic III (heals extra 25%, and I prefer adding Morale if I have a promotion left over).

You know, I've always thought of Super Medic Explorers as a waste of a GG. I'd rather have a Super Medic Horseman or a Super Medic Knight or Cavalry... etc, etc.

Combine with march, and promoting them up the combat line, they become one-man wrecking crews... and they heal a stack just the same as a super-medic explorer, except they can crush enemies and continue gaining experience.

The ONLY reason to put a GG on an explorer is if you're afraid of death and want to cower behind your other units. I find if you have a strong army stack, the odds of losing that GG is pretty darn low unless you're well behind the tech curve of your enemies.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

This is true, however, having a strong GG modern unit means that they might be more likely to defend than another of your units in the stack. If you have an explorer or chariot, they will never defend in the medieval era (and beyond) unless the stack is practically gone anyway. However, if you have a cavalry GG in a stack with grenadiers/riflemen and it is promoted to the teeth, it can be more likely to defend than all the grenadiers and any lower promoted rifles (unless on a hill or forest).

That's dangerous enough to make me want to keep it a lower level unit. Don't get me wrong, I'll still send the GG in to kill off the last defender (getting +2 experience from morale) and maybe in the modern era, I'll upgrade it to a gunship, but I usually don't get that far.

 

[Wolfshanze]

This is true, however, having a strong GG modern unit means that they might be more likely to defend than another of your units in the stack.

Of course you're going to defend... you're by far the strongest unit in your stack.

And if you're not behind the tech tree, and your general is based on the strongest unit in your army (Knights, Cavalry, etc), then the odds of you losing in a single attack, by even the best unit in the other guys army is actually fairly low if you've properly paid attention to his combat stats.

Once the initial attack is over (and you've won, which you should have), then your GG is probably below the combat strength of the rest of your SOD and will not be called-upon again to defend (anymore then a chariot or explorer would be).

I find it defeatist to put a GG on a non-combat unit (or a marginal combat unit)... that's just like trying to get your cities to produce nothing... it's a self-defeating attitude IMHO... the only likely way you'd lose a GG defending a stack is if you're BEHIND on the tech tree of your opponent... it's highly unlikely you'll ever run-into a super GG on the other side, so your own properly-combat-promoted GG should be able to defeat any initial attack by an enemy, then be protected by his own SoD if his combat strength drops to a dangerous level.

Speaking of which... I wish the AI wouldn't settle all it's darn GGs... I know it doesn't settle all of them, but it sure seems like it... I think I might run into one enemy GG a game (if I'm lucky)... more often then not, I just capture cities from the AI where they settled thier GGs... I wish I'd run into more enemy GG's.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, I really don't ride a persons gaming philosophy on the usage of a GG medic . The AI doesn't have to be AHEAD in tech for your cavalry to be in danger, just on an even keel. Especially if suicide catapults were used by the AI. The collateral damage will make the rest of the units less and less likely to defend, but catapults will barely touch the initial defender's health (your GG medic). So if the AI follows up a bunch of suicide catapults with a few riflemen, your GG can die.

Granted that's a lot of conditions, but I'd rather be sure my GG medic will survive. Since his job is to heal... it's not a waste to keep him alive. It's like saying the GP Farm/Science city is not efficient b/c it doesn't produce gold or production. Well, no, it's VERY efficient since it's sole purpose is to produce beakers and it's doing that at a ghastly rate

Well, the GG medic's job is to heal a stack quickly and while moving... it does that job exceedingly well even as a chariot.

Again, though, it's all about choice/options/gaming style...that's the beauty of CIV right?

 

[Joshua368]

My medic is always a horse unit, usually beginning life as a chariot, except under the very rare occurance that I don't have access to horses. But I really enjoy having three movement points (after great general it has combat-medic III-morale), it helps getting him around the battlefield as he usually falls behind to heal the damaged while the healthy march forward.

I do however keep him up to date -- I guess I just can't resist those free promotions! I still have no problems keeping him alive, I usually have several units of the same type with better fighting promotions so my medic never gets chosen as the defender. The only time I lose it is when the enemy catches me offguard with their stack of doom and destroys whatever stack the medic is part of... a smaller healing stack in a recently captured city for example. And this is rare as I usually am able to locate the stack and take precautions against it.

Also sometimes I use the medic to fight, having another hand to destroy a defender (only at >99% odds of course) gives me one less damaged regular unit that can move on to the next city. If the medic takes some damage, it's no big deal-- he was going to have to stay behind with the weakened units anyway.

 

[Wolfshanze]

The AI doesn't have to be AHEAD in tech for your cavalry to be in danger, just on an even keel. Especially if suicide catapults were used by the AI. The collateral damage will make the rest of the units less and less likely to defend, but catapults will barely touch the initial defender's health (your GG medic). So if the AI follows up a bunch of suicide catapults with a few riflemen, your GG can die.

I hate to tell you this, but if the AI suicides a bunch of catapults/cannon into your SoD and then follows up with a bunch of riflemen, your GG Explorer is just as likely to die as the combat-ready GG... any unit in a stack attacked with such a combo is in big trouble!

I have lost explorers in stacks of death before when attacked in such a fashion (now mind you, they weren't explorers with GG's attached, but they were explorers none-the-less). The only sure way to keep a GG from dying is not put him anywhere near the enemy... beefing up a GG with combat abilities is just as safe as hiding him behind a SoD... the enemy will need to bring a major SoD of it's own to kill a GG in either situation... it's just a GG with combat abilities is more useful then a cowering GG hiding behind his men.

My 2-cents... I know a lot of guys around here love to hid them on scouts and explorers... I find it a waste, and have had plenty of success using GG's as combat units on the front line. Scouts and Explorers are not impervious in a SoD... the right suicide of siege units followed by strong troops can kill any player SoD in the right situation.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Actually, no. If the AI suicides catapults into my stack and I have a chariot GG, he will receive the brunt of the collateral damage and will be the very last unit to defend. So unless my entire stack is wiped out (never has ever come even close to happening in my entire civ experience... I bring too much for that to be possible), my GG will survive. Whereas a cavalry will be likely to be one of the first to defend against the riflemen onslaught and will be very likely to die.

Everyone's got their own play style. But saying that my GG "hides behind" and "I find it defeatist" and "it's a self-defeating attitude IMHO" doesn't pay heed to "everyone's got their own play style". It's not defeatist if my purpose is to continue healing my very victorious stack.

Also, experience speaks a lot more than "likelyhoods". In my experience, I've never lost a chariot/explorer GG, whereas I have lost a few modern updated GG while defending.

 

[Inky]

The extra healing power of Woodsman-III makes only melee and gunpowder units ideal for supermedics. The Aztecs have a big boost here, with Jaguars being awesome as potential medics. Because of this, it is hard for me to consider an great general on an Explorer, even though I'm happy to use explorers as medics.

If recon units could get woodsman-III, that would be different.

 

[Solomwi]

I don't think separate units cumulate their healing effects. If a separate unit has march, it's only healing for the medic I percentage while moving whereas if you have march on the GG medic, he's healing for the Medic III percentage while moving. I just include march in the promotions for the GG medic. This way, the stack is being healed that much more even while moving.

March on the GG unit does nothing for the rest of the stack. You're right that separate units don't cumulate healing effects, but March has nothing to do with healing effect and everything to do with healing timing. Whatever the healing effect in the square is, the March unit will be healed by that amount, regardless of whether it moved that turn. To put it another way, for a non-March unit, healing is a two-part question: (1) has this unit moved this turn, and (2) if not, what is the total healing value to be applied. March simply renders the first question moot and goes straight to the second. So if your March unit ends the turn on the same square as your GG medic, the March unit heals 30% (assuming enemy lands and no Combat V).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yes... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that March (unit heals while moving) allows the GG medic to heal while moving. Unless the language is confusing and healing doesn't count for the rest of the stack while moving. I thought that "unit heals while moving" referred to whatever healing bonus the unit has (ie healing other units on same tile). Is that a concept error?

 

[Solomwi]

Yes... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that March (unit heals while moving) allows the GG medic to heal while moving. Unless the language is confusing and healing doesn't count for the rest of the stack while moving. I thought that "unit heals while moving" referred to whatever healing bonus the unit has (ie healing other units on same tile). Is that a concept error?

I see now. Yeah, you're thinking of the wrong healing. A medic which has moved that turn retains its ability to heal other units, but won't recover any HP if it's damaged. March applies to whether the unit can recover HP on a given turn, not whether it can heal other units.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

AHA! That was a concept error. Thanks for clearing that up! I'm not going to give march to my GG medic anymore!!! (considering that it NEVER engages in combat for anything other than >99%. Thanks for clearing that up! Now he'll get more worthwhile GG only upgrades like moral, or for chariot, the extra movement is great.

 

[Siesta Guru]

I have always been a bit confused about the medic ability of units, when does it give (extra) healing?

Does moving the medic unit make a difference?
Does moving the medic unit make a difference if it has march?
Does moving the wounded unit make a difference?
Does moving the wounded unit make a difference if it has march?
Does partly moving the medic unit make a difference?
Does partly moving the medic unit make a difference if it has march?
Does partly moving the wounded unit make a difference?
Does partly moving the wounded unit make a difference if it has march?

Partly as in, having moved but still having movement points left.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You need a mixed stack or having super combat GG's will screw you. If you DO have a mixed stack, they only tend to come up when they'll DOMINATE the attacker, and the AI is much less likely to attack such a stack in the first place.

I don't like making combat medics - the promotions needed to make these units more viable than a typical 2 promo unit is staggering - you'd need to win a LOT of battles with a very average (combat I at first usually) medic unit. Might as well just protect it and use real combat GG's for attacks - the combat VI march or CR III C III march variety, for example.

 

[Siesta Guru]

You need a mixed stack or having super combat GG's will screw you. If you DO have a mixed stack, they only tend to come up when they'll DOMINATE the attacker, and the AI is much less likely to attack such a stack in the first place.

I don't like making combat medics - the promotions needed to make these units more viable than a typical 2 promo unit is staggering - you'd need to win a LOT of battles with a very average (combat I at first usually) medic unit. Might as well just protect it and use real combat GG's for attacks - the combat VI march or CR III C III march variety, for example.

They keep your entire stack fresh, unless you have 4 times the amount of power as the enemy it makes a huge difference.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The thing about combat GGs is that I usually siege a city until my best unit is no less than 95% chance of winning. Most of the time, even a mediocre unit will have a greater than 99% chance of winning... so I really don't see the point of the combat GG. If I am going to war enough, I'd rather use it for XP in my military city

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The thing about combat GGs is that I usually siege a city until my best unit is no less than 95% chance of winning. Most of the time, even a mediocre unit will have a greater than 99% chance of winning... so I really don't see the point of the combat GG. If I am going to war enough, I'd rather use it for XP in my military city

A powerful defender or two (such as a CG longbow) is likely to chew through a lot of siege, even as a combat GG such as a CR III Combat III mace could kill it well over 95% of the time. This saves you units and WW.

With theocracy or vassalage you get 2 promos. It takes a lot of them to get non-CHA to 3 promos/turn for non-mounted troops.

Ever actually had a combat VI march knight? You get 2-3 of them and all of a sudden you stop losing more than maybe 1 siege unit/city, if that.

I had a domination win on emperor with 2 c VI march elephants, a super medic, and a CR III C III sword. The rest of the stack was stock elephants, catapults and axes. The opponent I was fighting had longbows at the start and very shortly had maces.

After suicide of 1-2 CATS (not trebs) into longbows I was able to take them down - the only way this was possible was my rifle-strength elephants who usually had full HP the turn after they attacked. Compared to having some extra combat III elephants, IMO this made it go far more smoothly (both elephant GGs had over 70 xp, the sword had over 50 IIRC, so there's an idea of their utility). How many cats did I save? Who knows. At least 10 for sure, possibly closer to 20. Would having a 3 promo unit out of the gate helped more? Doubtful.

A CR III C III sword is almost a CR III praetorian. When it is upgraded for free into a mace later, it owns pretty much all defenders for a long time with even a tiny bit of collateral (as in, a normal CR III mace would beat an unpromoted rifle in a city, so imagine what a C III CR III would do against anything before that, especially with a splash of collateral).

Settling can be useful too of course, but IMO people ignore combat attaching too much.