Unpopular opinion: people that blame AI don't play on deity

TheDouche

Chieftain
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This clearly doesn't apply to everyone, but I think it stands true for most.

I'm not a troll and I am in no way trying to stirr things up, but I feel like the truth should be said.

If the game had a decent AI, 90% of the players couldn't enjoy it. I know it, some of you know it, and guys at firaxis know it aswell. If openAI can stomp top human players at dota2, a game requiering way more complex decisions per minute, it won't be that hard to do it here.
Heck, they could only use neural networks for the first 100 turns to get the lead, cutting complexity massively, and then use some pre-programmed easy to replicate science victory scheme.

This will probably lead at AI being better than 99% of the players, without the need for bonuses. But It Would Suck! Like my last "cultural peaceful" deity game did when Nubia blessed me with 5 pitatis and 3 swordsmen by turn 40. Couple reloads later I still didn't find the way to get out of the situation and still have my wonder. Sigh

I find all the complaining ridiculous. Some people wouldn't buy gs because of AI planes, but I don't think they love the game enough to play it at all. Maybe people should enjoy their overly-easy deity games, and move on. Just my two cents.
 
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Well keep in mind that a Super AI could be used only for deity level. There could be still be an easy level for other players. So you could do both, provide a strong AI for expert players and an easy AI for the rest of us. Also, most players are not asking for some super unbeatable AI, they are just asking for the AI to be fixed in some basic areas. Basically, they are not asking for a super AI, they just want one that isn't super dumb.
 
Your example of 5 pitati archers and 3 swordsman by turn 40 is early game, people know that the AI is most dangerous in the early game. I want an AI that can claim victory in a timely manner when it is well ahead of it's opponents.

This is obviously very late game. I often see Korea or Sumeria have a ton of Science but they never close in on a Science victory quickly. Same with Pericles and a Culture victory.
 
Currently in the global stats only 4.7% of players have actually won on deity. I think we get stuck in a bubble here at Civfanatics and once we master deity its "easy" because that's what we keep reading and saying. A lot of players have a tough time overcoming the head start. I think more than anything the biggest annoyance with the AI is the cringeworthy dumb stuff we see it do. Shifting units around aimlessly, poor city planning, geographically dependent wonders in rotten spots, etc.
 
The problem with an absolute assertion like the OP's is that we only need one example to bring the argument down.

I play on Deity. There, absolute argument destroyed. I am not bragging, I don't care about that nor achievements. I care about my experience, which with the current state of the AI, is lacking to say the least. I don't care about more puzzle elements if the AI is not able to at least use them, let alone effectively.

What I do care about is the franchise. I am with her since 1991, all the way to here. I love the civ series, and that is exactly why I will be harshly critic to anything that goes to the detriment of the game, and to those developers that tend to forget that the franchise is where it is now, thanks to the strong long-term fanbase, which I assume cares a lot about the single player experience.

All we ask, at the bare minimum, is that the AI is able to play its own game, using all systems. Is that too much to ask?
 
If the game had a decent AI, 90% of the players couldn't enjoy it. I know it, some of you know it, and guys at firaxis know it aswell. If openAI can stomp top human players at dota2, a game requiering way more complex decisions per minute, it won't be that hard to do it here.
Heck, they could only use neural networks for the first 100 turns to get the lead, cutting complexity massively, and then use some pre-programmed easy to replicate science victory scheme.
Okay, honestly your whole post sort of sounds of "I read one article on AI and now I'm going on some rant", but here we go:
1) Dota is not a turned based game. The AI's main advantage is that can 'react' quicker than a human. In a turned based game like Civ, the AI does not have that advantage to leverage. Also as an aside, my understanding is at this point the openAI is still playing with some game rule restrictions (to make it easier for the AI) and it has access to game information the human player doesn't necessarily (something they try and avoid in Civ though it's questionable in some cases (strategic resources for example)).
2) I wouldn't say Dota is 'more complex' than Civ. The OpenAI team estimates about 1000 actions available actions per "turn". The Hiro AI (who make an AI that operates off FreeCiv, an open source Civ 2 clone) estimate about 2400 actions per turn in that game (Civ 6 is a much more complex game with more decisions but also 1UPT means less units). For comparison it's 35 actions in chess and 250 in Go (both turn based games).

In terms of using a neural network for Civ in the fashion of the OpenAI:
1) One that requires a huge amount of data/'reinforcement" for the AI, and practically speaking would likely require Civ to be an online game like DOTA to do so.
2) I've said before, but my understanding is that this AI approach would be severely limited by the games MODability, at least on the 'strategic' level (I think it would be much more feasible on the tactical level).

But as many as said, there's a huge gulf between 'deep blue' (which can beat the best players on even ground) and an AI that simply presents a challenge even with a lot of bonuses (say on deity). Most folks are just asking for the latter.
 
Honestly I don't think how good the AI is at Deity level really has much impact on the enjoyment of the game for the vast majority of players. If Deity was too hard, folks like me would just lower the difficulty until we had it a level we found enjoyable. Easy fix.

That said, there are definitely people who want Deity to be a lot more challenging than it actually is. While most players can lower the difficulty, if someone finds Deity to be completely lacking they don't have any other real options to make the game harder (outside of handicapping themselves however they want, I suppose). And while we may never get to a level where it's consistently challenging enough to keep all of the best players engaged, I think they'd probably all settle for just getting a lot of stupid things the AI does game after game fixed.

Can't comment on Deity, but on Emperor I've seen the AI settle cities that it loses to rebellions a few turns later, I've seen the AI suicide apostles in areas they're supposedly trying to convert over and over again, I've seen the AI make absolutely ridiculous trade offers (oh gee, a handful of coins for my relic, thanks for wasting my time)... stupid stuff like this ruins my enjoyment a lot more than a competent AI would.
 
This clearly doesn't apply to everyone, but I think it stands true for most.

I'm not a troll and I am in no way trying to stirr things up, but I feel like the truth should be said.

If the game had a decent AI, 90% of the players couldn't enjoy it.

Shouldn't 'the truth' be supported by some kind of reasoning? No one is talking about neural nets, which require a lot of extra processing that would delay turn times apart from anything else - they're talking about AIs that can use the game's basic systems. Difficulty level has nothing to do with it, since difficulty in Civ games has always been built around bonuses given to AI civs and/or penalties added to the human player rather than any differences in AI behaviour.

Deity is too easy, but if the AI were able to use the bonuses it is given extra bonuses could fix that without affecting play at lower levels. I don't know if Civ VI AI has the same issue (it doesn't seem to hoard gold nearly as much), but in Civ V one of the AI's bonuses was extra gold - but it didn't know how to spend it, so you just had a bunch of AIs with giant treasuries that the human player could exploit with trade deals. For bonuses to have a meaningful impact on AI difficulty the AI first has to be capable of using those bonuses.

Some complaints about the AI are idiotic, for sure. People who use all the available exploits, like choppiing overflow combined with wall/naval production cards, and then complain the game is too easy I have no patience for at all. You can't reasonably resort to cheat codes and then complain the AI can't keep up - and frankly I don't see the point anyway. I find Civ VI too easy on Deity, but it is at least a moderate challenge played fair.

Similarly, people who insist on wiping out the AI civs and complain the AI can't match them militaristically have unrealistic expectations.

None of that ignores significant functional problems in the AI's simple ability to use basic game systems.

- AI civs consistently fail emergencies against other AIs, because (and I've observed this while participating alongside AIs in emergencies) they'll mill around and kill enemy units - and can do so quite effectively - but will almost never attempt to attack the target city.

- AIs do not use governors deliberately to manage loyalty - they'll routinely put a governor in a city for a few turns, then move it out again seemingly at random, and have trouble with the loyalty system in general. They frequently forward-settle cities they can't possibly keep, and although their city placement is generally okay (they'll often be a tile off the optimal spot, but close) they will still insist on sending out settlers late in the game and colonising any unused land, even if it's in snow.

- AIs use air forces and nukes extremely rarely, even when the game goes well past the point when they develop those techs.

- In wars past the early game the AI will often not attack, and when it does it's reliant on the large number of units it has access to at higher difficulties to do so effectively. Which however does not stop them declaring war, even against civs that are not close neighbours.

- The AI still repairs pillaged spaceports infrequently and seems to protect them from spies more or less at random, without favouring ones with an ongoing project. Since the AI loves blowing up spaceports with spies, even without human interference this can stall their ability to complete a science victory.

- AIs do not seem to value Great People - in previous patches they seemed to faith or gold buy them sometimes, but this behaviour seems to have altogether stopped.

- AIs love conquering city states instead of using their bonuses, and do so right at the start - a waste of resources that is only likely to slow them, especially on higher difficulties where the extra settlers they get make an extra early city less valuable.

- The AI still struggles to use garrisoned units correctly. It's somewhat inconsistent whether it garrisons with ranged or melee, and if garrisoning with melee the unit inside the city will almost never attack adjacent enemies.

- I'm not sure quite what the fault is, though it's no doubt some combination of the above plus the AI's tendency to waste resources on unnecessary wars with other AIs, late-game settlers, Holy Sites in most cities, excess spaceports and so on, but it is simply far too easy to overtake the AI for peaceful victory conditions. In my last game I checked - I was still the last of 11 (Norway had been defeated) AIs in science by turn 235. I won a science victory 70 turns later, through nothing more complex than pushing campus/industrial zone projects to get the space race GPs, and despite missing on Ruhr Valley - and, needless to say, using no overflow tricks (in fact I ended up wasting part of Korolev's boost since I didn't have the techs to chain two space race projects when I used him). This should not happen on Deity.
 
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Okay, by that logic every Civ before 6 shouldn't have existed.... The AI was no genius in previous games (quite the opposite), but it's just silly to assume the dichotomy of "Civ 6 AI" or "SUPER MacHINE LeARNING Ai" because that's simply not the case.

Also, let's just say Pitali Archers don't exactly make for a good case for good game design either, lol. Grats, some civs are autowin; what kind of achievement is that?

The fact that you have to bring up Deity only strengthens the arguments against the AI, if the only legit challenge must be on the highest level when the AI bonuses are already unprecedented! It doesn't help that winning on Deity in Civ 6 is simply not a big deal as it was in previous games either. I've done it when I was a lot worse than I am now and I've never come close in previous games (or even bothered to). And it was mostly to offset arguments like this, lol. And honestly, I'm going to go as far to say that pretty much any regular poster on this board could beat deity if they wanted to, and this is definitely not true about other games.

So it's not that people even want a good AI, but rather Firaxis has been setting new lows since Civ 5, and I've already debunked the muh 1upt repeatedly, so don't even start.

Finally, even if the AI was competent and made impossible, that doesn't mean that it couldn't hold back on lower difficulties. This is already a thing-- the AI does avoid declaring war on lower difficulties (at least before 6, I dunno about 6). If they ended up making a difficulty 9 to challenge all the stronk l33t individuals, that's fine-- I wouldn't have to play it. K-mod for Civ 4, for example, i was perfectly fine on difficulty 4. And if I had to drop down to Settler to enjoy the game, well, so be it.
 
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Some complaints about the AI are idiotic, for sure. People who use all the available exploits, like choppiing overflow combined with wall/naval production cards, and then complain the game is too easy I have no patience for at all. You can't reasonably resort to cheat codes and then complain the AI can't keep up - and frankly I don't see the point anyway. I find Civ VI too easy on Deity, but it is at least a moderate challenge played fair.

Similarly, people who insist on wiping out the AI civs and complain the AI can't match them militaristically have unrealistic expectations.

I agree taking over enemies Civ's can be too easy, just build 5 or 6 archers alongside 2 warriors and go to town in the Ancient era. Or upgrades 9 Heavy Chariots to Knights on turn 85, pair one with a Battering Ram then dominate easily.

This is why I play peaceful, and will continue to do so until the AI has been improved substantially. This will probably require giving modders access to the DLL source.
 
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If the game had a decent AI, 90% of the players couldn't enjoy it. I know it, some of you know it, and guys at firaxis know it aswell.
Ideally, Civ would have a difficulty slider like a chess AI, instead of giving AI bonuses the AI would get more competent at higher difficulties. This is probably a pipe-dream, but the idea is that different strength AI can be implemented at different difficulties. If introducing a stronger AI would frustrate "lower level" players on Prince, then perhaps take away a few Immortal/Deity bonuses and apply the new "better" AI there.

If openAI can stomp top human players at dota2, a game requiering way more complex decisions per minute, it won't be that hard to do it here.
There's a lot wrong with this statement. First and foremost, Dota 2 and Civ are entirely different games. Dota 2 is not turn-based, and a big portion of why openAI can beat humans in Dota 2 is that the AI has far superior reaction time and can make better "mechanical" plays. Things like dodging abilities, perfectly kiting, hitting abilities with higher accuracy, etc. None of that exists in a turn-based game like Civ. Furthermore, saying Dota 2 is more complex from a strategy perspective than Civ is probably debatable. I mean, could AI be developed to perfect Civ AI that optimizes every turn? Probably. Does anybody want that? Probably not. I think people are more concerned with having AI that has some level of competence. The fact that the AI in Deity can start with such ridiculous bonuses yet get absolutely smashed just shows how awful they are.

This will probably lead at AI being better than 99% of the players, without the need for bonuses. But It Would Suck! Like my last "cultural peaceful" deity game did when Nubia blessed me with 5 pitatis and 3 swordsmen by turn 40. Couple reloads later I still didn't find the way to get out of the situation and still have my wonder. Sigh.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Doesn't this point contradict what you've been saying? Nubia was able to wreck you because of their bonuses, not because of their AI competence. That's what most people don't want. If the AI in Civ was better, perhaps Nubia doesn't get to start with all of those bonuses and allows for you to play in a more enjoyable manner.

Personally, I find the current state of the AI game-ruining. The first 50-100 turns of the game are spent playing desperate catch-up. I have to keep a big enough army or I will get run over by the AI's starting bonuses, but I also have to build a ton of cities and campuses to keep up in science. The AI starting with such substantial bonuses severely limits options and methods of play. But once I have caught up, the games over. Since I know my decision making is vastly superior to the AI, there is no way I can lose once I catch them. So the first portion of the game is limited due to AI starting bonuses and the latter portion of the game is a snooze-fest. The worst of both worlds. I don't expect this issue to be solved, and I don't think anyone is asking for a super-AI to smash players. Just some steps in the right direction to make the AI a little more competitive without massive starting bonuses would be nice.
 
Some people wouldn't buy gs because of AI planes,

I will buy GS regardless but in Civ 5 the AI used planes properly and build plenty of AA units. And guess what? The game was still doable and late game war a lot more enjoyable.
 
I do not expect the AI to be great... I just expect it to at least use all the systems, even imcompetently. Hec, I would be satisfied to be attecked by airplanes... this has never happened to me in Civ VI.

To me, that's the problem. I can't count how many times I enter AI lands, and their districts are in the stupidest places, and their terrain isn't even improved. I mean, maybe not improving the terrain is actually good AI, but I just want to see the basics around - mine the hills, improve the resources, and throw a few farms down. If they at least did that, then I can forgive a lot of their problems. At least they finally got them to build a mix of districts instead of every AI building a holy city first in all their cities, but they could definitely do a better job at the basic infrastructure.

And yeah, if the next expansion also lets the AI use an airforce, that would be great too.
 
Playing on deity means the AI gets massive bonuses to flat yields, and other things like free increased combat strength - it doesn't make the AI any better, just gives them more stuff that tries to give them a huge lead at the beginning of the game. Sure it's a challenge that many enjoy, but many also would prefer a truly better AI. As you mentioned on deity play style options are reduced considerably. Is it possible to play peacefully (no city grabs) on deity and win a cultural victory? I doubt it, worth a try though.

Complaints about the AI almost always center around its decision making. At launch the AI would almost always have situations in my games where it could take one of my cities but didn't - just like filling a balloon with anticipation and then deciding to let it slowly fizzle out. Just in another thread a poster mentioned how the AI could have taken a city and had a big lead but instead kept offering very favorable peace deals. Even on settler that would be very strange - the most important thing is the AI act in a believable way. I don't want to feel like the AI is pulling its punches or that it doesn't know how to correctly play all aspects of the game consistently.

The AI has moments now when it really seems to be getting its act together - but too many moments where it seems like it has no idea what it really wants to do. Both on the side of combat, and for victories. They seem very vulnerable to spies during science victories, and AIs that could focus on a cultural victory seem not to pursue it.

It's very likely that if the AI were too good, there would be a lot of complaints too, but at least at that point it could be counteracted by giving the player more advantages.

I also wanted to note that for Dota 2, as far as I'm aware OpenAI is still very limited in what it can do - as far as I know it's still limited to just 1v1 in the middle lane, and with limited conditions as well? 4X games have a tough time with AI it seems across the board, but we should always ask for more improvements. I think as long as the criticism stays constructive, it'll lead to a better future for the series.
 
Would the "Super-AI" be able to show up with an army of 8 at your doorstep at turn 40? Or is that because of their free starting units?

What people want is an AI that can shuffle its units around in a sensible manner and knows how to attack a city. It's incredibly easy to win a war against the AI by attrition, i.e. letting them break against your defenses and shoot them with arrows in the meantime. And that's not fun. Were the AI better at pathfinding and planning, they wouldn't need as many units which would in turn shorten the calculations (=turn times). They'd also need fewer bonuses.

I suggest you play with the "randomize" mod which simulates a change of dynasties in your Civ by taking away control from you and giving it to an AI in the meantime. You may watch the AI take your turns and you will be frustrated. Sacrificing units, building cities too close, starting a wonder you really don't need nor want. And so many warriors....

It's not that people want a harder AI, they want one that doesn't make obviously stupid decisions.
 
I couldn’t disagree with the OP more. There is all sorts of fuzzy thinking going on.

In no particular order. And not exhaustive. First, the game is currently too easy on all levels. The AI is part of the reason. It’s not just the game needs to be harder (although it does). The game is all just too damn passive. Just passive. Either that, or the game needs to just become a city building sandbox (in which case, can I have my money back please).

Second, the game doesn’t need some crazy Super Google AI to be challenging. It just needs to be better designed around challenge overall (and that includes things like balancing units). In terms of AI - which really just means computer or game controlled opponents - they just need better tactics, pathing, etc., all stuff that just needs to be figured out and programmed. Civ is not chess. It doesn’t need deep blue. Honestly, most of the AI’s short comings could be fixed by just granting them free units during wars.

Third, more challenge doesn’t mean weaker players can’t play. Part of building in challenge would be building in assistance and accessibility. Have a look at a game like Celeste - hard as nails platforming, but which provides great assist modes to make the game accessible to people that need help.

Sorry. Trying to stay off here over Christmas etc. But with all respect to the OP, this is a silly argument.
 
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