USSR Like it or not?

Do you Like the USSR?


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How can you know that about the US? They were more industrialised and better equiped than the USSR. And my point is that even when Britain was alone (something that the USSR never was), and very much under the threat of invasion, they didn't need a dictatorship to get things done. This is a very false and dangerous notion, that dictatorships perform better in war. History has not vindicated this.

Particularly about US - because they were unprepared for massive land war, for obvious reasons. If they had several years to prepare, yes, their potential would allow them to defeat Germany. Britain was never attacked by huge land forces, like USSR. Threat of invasion and invasion are different things.

Dude, Russia was not defeated in WW1. Lenin surrenderd because he was taking money from the germans. There is no way the germans would have taken Moscow in WW1; 0% chance.

Yes, Russia was destroyed from the inside. What does it change? Was such scenario possible in 1941? If not, why?

The "superpower" thing is overblown. Russia has always been mighty, and probably always will be. During the Soviet times, it was only a match for the USA in military terms (and only after the mid 60's). As far as the economy goes, it was completely dwarfed by the USA, always.

How it is become possible, that during hard time, liberal progressive ruler let his country be destroyed and demolished, while cruel dictator save it and left much more powerful than it was before his rule?

Russia has always been mighty, and probably always will be.

I hope so.

Oh, and soviet ideology very much implied killing the enemies of the people.

No. Do you know the difference between ideology and criminal codex?

Do you think that Hitler's is one "sane" ideology?

Stupid question.

Why did Stalin chose the chechens? Well, why did he choose the Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews?

Stalin deported Jewish nation? That's something new to me :crazyeye:
Really, why he would deport Germans, Finns, Chechens, and not Russians, Belorussians? Was there problems with, for example, massive Chechen collaboration or no?
 
An estonian website? Thats like asking Hamas to investigate who started the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Please take time to actually take a look at the website and check who are the members of this commission, before trolling. The only thing that makes them "Estonian" is that the commission was invited to life by our late President to provide neutral and independent assessment of crimes regardless of perpetrators.

Spoiler :
Chairman:
* Minister Max Jakobson (one-time candidate to General Secretary of UN)
Members:
* Nicholas Lane (Chairman of the International Relations Commission of the American Jewish Committee)
* Uffe Ellemann-Jensen (President of the European Liberal Party, former Foreign Minister of Denmark)
* Peter Reddaway (Professor of Political Science and International Affairs of the George Washington University)
* Arseny Roginsky (Chairman of the Council of the Scientific and Educational Centre "Memorial" of Moscow, Scientific Programme Manager
* Paul Goble (Director of Communications of Public Relations of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty)
* Wolfgang Freiherr von Stetten (Professor, Mitglied des deutschen Bundestages)
So we've got two Jews, Dane, American, Russian, Briton and German. Still any problems with the source?

Doesn't look like neutral article.
See above. Why not?

No. Do you know the difference between ideology and criminal codex?
The latter is usually based on the former?
Anyway, let us bring some quotes:

From the 1 September 1918 edition of the Bolshevik newspaper, Krasnaya Gazeta:

“We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible.”

Excerpt from an interview with Felix Dzerzhinsky published in Novaia Zhizn on 14 July 1918.

“We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted. Terror is an absolute necessity during times of revolution."

Excerpts from V.I. Lenin, “The Lessons of the Moscow Uprising” (1906)
"Social Democracy must recognise this mass terror and incorporate it into its tactics, organising and controlling it of course, subordinating it to the interests and conditions of the working-class movement and the general revolutionary struggle."

This could go on and on. Why are you even trying to dispute this?
 
Please take time to actually take a look at the website and check who are the members of this commission, before trolling. The only thing that makes them "Estonian" is that the commission was invited to life by our late President to provide neutral and independent assessment of crimes regardless of perpetrators.
So Hamas invited people who support the idea of Israeli aggression to provide a "neutral and independent assessment of crimes regardless of perpetrators". That will show them.

Still any problems with the source?
Aside from them being handpicked by a side, interested in a specific outcome? 1. Noone of them is a certified historian. Most of them are politicians. What do you think they'll make of handpicked documents, carefully selected for them by the unbiased "President" 2. Their jobs are talking and getting paid for that. And again who do you think is paying a professor of Political Science and International Affairs of the George Washington University, located 4 blocks away from the White House, USA. :) Really people.
 
So Hamas invited people who support the idea of Israeli aggression to provide a "neutral and independent assessment of crimes regardless of perpetrators". That will show them.
If you had bothered to read what they write, you would see that where Estonians have been involved in crimes, it is admitted. I maintain that the commission is both independent and neutral in its conclusions. If you disagree, you (or anyone else) can feel free provide a different source and reasoning why that should be more trustworthy.
Aside from them being handpicked by a side, interested in a specific outcome? 1. Noone of them is a certified historian. Most of them are politicians. What do you think they'll make of handpicked documents, carefully selected for them by the unbiased "President" 2. Their jobs are talking and getting paid for that. And again who do you think is paying a professor of Political Science and International Affairs of the George Washington University, located 4 blocks away from the White House, USA. :) Really people.
Picked so the team would be as balanced as possible and include reputable people.
1. Sigh. Where and how are historians "certified"? You asked for proof that people were killed. I provided that proof, based on historical documents. You say the documents are "handpicked". What is that supposed to mean? Evil Estonian conspirators hid all the documents which reveal those killed were magically resurrected later?
2. Shrug. The same people who are paying Russian Human Rights Movements, American Jewish Committee and Bundestag?
 
See above. Why not?
For example, quote which I brought, calling forest brothers "estonian patriotic partisans", and contains other specific terminology. International commission supposed to be paid by neutral party, not interested in one-sided results of analysis. And of course, point of view of Soviet and Russian side must be taken into account, not ignored as in this article.

As for described crimes of Estonian SS troops - it's hard to ignore those which can be backed by documents.

The latter is usually based on the former?
Anyway, let us bring some quotes:

From the 1 September 1918 edition of the Bolshevik newspaper, Krasnaya Gazeta:

“We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible.”

Excerpt from an interview with Felix Dzerzhinsky published in Novaia Zhizn on 14 July 1918.

“We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted. Terror is an absolute necessity during times of revolution."

Excerpts from V.I. Lenin, “The Lessons of the Moscow Uprising” (1906)
"Social Democracy must recognise this mass terror and incorporate it into its tactics, organising and controlling it of course, subordinating it to the interests and conditions of the working-class movement and the general revolutionary struggle."

This could go on and on. Why are you even trying to dispute this?

All your quotes are from revoluton, civil war times and before, directed against "whites". They have nothing to do with official Soviet ideology (BTW, USSR was created in 1920). The difference is that people in the USSR were repressed according to laws of the country, after trial (at least formal). There are no principal difference with, say, today's Russia, except scale of repressions, of course.

Nazi ideology implied extermination of entire nations. Jews could be killed only because they were Jews.

For deportations, I think that during war time many people were deported unlawfully. That was Stalin's method of bringing order to problem regions. All what I'm going to say is that unlike Hitler, Stalin was not crazy Ukrainian (Estonian, Chechen) hater - he was cruel dictator, leader of the country.
Especially for sensitive people: I'm not "justifying" anything and not giving moral estimations.
 
Particularly about US - because they were unprepared for massive land war, for obvious reasons. If they had several years to prepare, yes, their potential would allow them to defeat Germany. Britain was never attacked by huge land forces, like USSR. Threat of invasion and invasion are different things.
Obviously we would have to assume some sort of preparation. They did not prepara because they were sheltered by an ocean; were they not they would have prepared. Fact is Germany was not some unstoppable machine; it had a bunch of limitations and was no industrial match for the US.

I know that Britain was not invaded. My point is that it was under serious threat, and did not feel the need to become a dictatorship (what you said was necessary to defeat the germans). The US didn't become a dictatorship to defeat the Empire of Japan either.

Yes, Russia was destroyed from the inside. What does it change? Was such scenario possible in 1941? If not, why?
It changes everything because it goes to show that Stalin was not a superman for stoping the germans. Russia had stopped Napoleon before, and would not be defeated in WW1 if it was not for bolshevik treason. Russia had the means to stop Germany, Stalin just made the cost bigger and failed to prepare adequately.

How it is become possible, that during hard time, liberal progressive ruler let his country be destroyed and demolished, while cruel dictator save it and left much more powerful than it was before his rule?
Very simplistic interpretation of facts. The seeds of the chaos that was the early 90's were planted decades before.
It is an economic fact that you can achieve high rates of growth, for a limited period, if you force an extremely high savings rate (and, there is the simplified economic identity: savings = investment). That's what the USSR did for a while, including under Stalin. But the growth achieved by that is usually of poor quality, and it is not susteinable. This is a well known fact among development economists, in fact that sort of savings-induced economic growth is known as "stalinist growth". The soviet economic decline begun much before the final collapse.

Many of the things that are usually blamed on Yeltsin (ie, decline of life expectancy) were actually going on since the mid 60's (that's right - life expectancy declined in Russia for decades). The money supply was also expanded by decades, russian currency was worthless much before Gorbachev - it's just that it didn't show yet. Which is not to say Yeltsin's regime was blameless - it was corrupt. And the West failed to provide proper counseling and pushed Russia further down the cliff by being too demanding with debt payements and so on.

But to blame it all on "liberalism" and look at the old days as something better is ridiculous. Fact is many eastern european nations managed to make a succesful transition to liberal capitalism; so the problem in Russia was not liberalism itself, but rather how things were done.

I hope so.
Me too, as long as russians change their mindset which seems quite compromised by decades of soviet propaganda.

No. Do you know the difference between ideology and criminal codex?
Yeah, and as an ideal, the soviets desired the elimination of many groups of people such as the kulaks.

Stalin deported Jewish nation? That's something new to me :crazyeye:
He deported several jewish groups, yes.

Really, why he would deport Germans, Finns, Chechens, and not Russians, Belorussians? Was there problems with, for example, massive Chechen collaboration or no?
Massive? No. And while there was collaboration, it was because of the barbaric way that those nationalities were treated by the soviets. Remember that nazis were first greeted in the Ukraine as liberators, which is pretty justifiable considering how that country was treated.

Again, Stalin handled things in the "evil dictator" way. If some real incident of collaboration on some nationality was reported, he would punish that whole group - and other groups just loosely related. What he did to them was one of the great crimes of the last century.
 
For example, quote which I brought, calling forest brothers "estonian patriotic partisans", and contains other specific terminology. International commission supposed to be paid by neutral party, not interested in one-sided results of analysis. And of course, point of view of Soviet and Russian side must be taken into account, not ignored as in this article.
Well, how would you call people who took up arms against foreign power who had forcefully annexed their country? In this case, more specifically, against "destruction battalions", who were assigned the task to carry out "scorched earth" tactics against advancing German troops? You may argue that in some cases they were also actively collaborating with Nazis, but here we are talking about events which happened shortly before Germans even reached Estonia. And even then - do you really think that Estonian partisans were motivated by their love against Hitler and national socialism, rather than patriotism/revenge?
As for described crimes of Estonian SS troops - it's hard to ignore those which can be backed by documents.
Everything in that report is backed by documents.
All your quotes are from revoluton, civil war times and before, directed against "whites". They have nothing to do with official Soviet ideology (BTW, USSR was created in 1920).
Quotes of Lenin have nothing to do with Soviet ideology? USSR didn't just magically appear, it was created through that same revolution - which originally was intended to reach around the world eventually. And people were punished for "counter-revolutionary actions" well into 30-s. EDIT 1: Also, punishment was usually extended to families of the "criminals", which is contrary to basic human rights principles.
The difference is that people in the USSR were repressed according to laws of the country, after trial (at least formal). There are no principal difference with, say, today's Russia, except scale of repressions, of course. Nazi ideology implied extermination of entire nations. Jews could be killed only because they were Jews.
And Soviet citizens could be killed or deported just because they were deemed "socially dangerous" or "counter-revolutionary" - because such "offenses" were criminalized. You are right in that the trials were usually "formal" - sentences were often given without the defendant being present, the accused would not get a defender nor right to appeal.
For deportations, I think that during war time many people were deported unlawfully. That was Stalin's method of bringing order to problem regions. All what I'm going to say is that unlike Hitler, Stalin was not crazy Ukrainian (Estonian, Chechen) hater - he was cruel dictator, leader of the country.
Especially for sensitive people: I'm not "justifying" anything and not giving moral estimations.
Completely agreed, he wasn't. But if we take moral dimension out of this, actions of both were "necessary/useful" to their regime. And if we bring it back, I do not think that killing/discrimination based on race is somehow intrinsically worse than killing/discrimination based on class. Both are equally bad in my book.
EDIT2: For clarity, I do not think that Estonians or other Soviet minorities (possibly bar Chechens) were treated particularly worse / suffered more from Bolshevik regime, than Russians themselves. The only difference was that the kind of people destroyed here in 1940-s were destroyed in Russia already during civil war or in 1930-s.
 
Obviously we would have to assume some sort of preparation. They did not prepara because they were sheltered by an ocean; were they not they would have prepared. Fact is Germany was not some unstoppable machine; it had a bunch of limitations and was no industrial match for the US.

I know that Britain was not invaded. My point is that it was under serious threat, and did not feel the need to become a dictatorship (what you said was necessary to defeat the germans). The US didn't become a dictatorship to defeat the Empire of Japan either.

It changes everything because it goes to show that Stalin was not a superman for stoping the germans. Russia had stopped Napoleon before, and would not be defeated in WW1 if it was not for bolshevik treason. Russia had the means to stop Germany, Stalin just made the cost bigger and failed to prepare adequately.

German land forces in 1941 were unstoppable for anybody except USSR. (For US - probably could be if they would prepare, and blah-blah-blah). USSR could probably defeat Nazis without Stalin's dictatorship, because Napoleon, 1812 and so on. We can't be 100% sure if dictatorship was necessary, or not, I see the facts. Russia lost first world war under liberal (compared to Stalin) rule of Nikolai 2. In incomparably worse situation, dictator wins the war and make his country a superpower. I assume the facts that Russia lost WW1 and USSR was a superpower in 1960-s as commonly known.

Very simplistic interpretation of facts. The seeds of the chaos that was the early 90's were planted decades before.
It is an economic fact that you can achieve high rates of growth, for a limited period, if you force an extremely high savings rate (and, there is the simplified economic identity: savings = investment). That's what the USSR did for a while, including under Stalin. But the growth achieved by that is usually of poor quality, and it is not susteinable. This is a well known fact among development economists, in fact that sort of savings-induced economic growth is known as "stalinist growth". The soviet economic decline begun much before the final collapse.

Many of the things that are usually blamed on Yeltsin (ie, decline of life expectancy) were actually going on since the mid 60's (that's right - life expectancy declined in Russia for decades). The money supply was also expanded by decades, russian currency was worthless much before Gorbachev - it's just that it didn't show yet. Which is not to say Yeltsin's regime was blameless - it was corrupt. And the West failed to provide proper counseling and pushed Russia further down the cliff by being too demanding with debt payements and so on.

But to blame it all on "liberalism" and look at the old days as something better is ridiculous. Fact is many eastern european nations managed to make a succesful transition to liberal capitalism; so the problem in Russia was not liberalism itself, but rather how things were done.

I'm far from blaming liberalism in all troubles. One of the biggest troubles of USSR was that nobody seriously reformed Stalin's totalitarian model of government after his death. It was improper for peace time and harmful for economic development. Before and during war time, liberalism of Yeltsin or Gorbachev-style are deadly dangerous.

Yeah, and as an ideal, the soviets desired the elimination of many groups of people such as the kulaks.

He deported several jewish groups, yes.

Massive? No. And while there was collaboration, it was because of the barbaric way that those nationalities were treated by the soviets. Remember that nazis were first greeted in the Ukraine as liberators, which is pretty justifiable considering how that country was treated.

Again, Stalin handled things in the "evil dictator" way. If some real incident of collaboration on some nationality was reported, he would punish that whole group - and other groups just loosely related. What he did to them was one of the great crimes of the last century.

I already wrote above.
If some group of Jewish people was deported - they were deported neither because Stalin hated Jews, nor because Soviet ideology demanded deporting Jews.
The reason of deportation was in illegal activities of the group of people, which was dangerous for regime or country (like collaboration).
 
Well, how would you call people who took up arms against foreign power who had forcefully annexed their country? In this case, more specifically, against "destruction battalions", who were assigned the task to carry out "scorched earth" tactics against advancing German troops? You may argue that in some cases they were also actively collaborating with Nazis, but here we are talking about events which happened shortly before Germans even reached Estonia. And even then - do you really think that Estonian partisans were motivated by their love against Hitler and national socialism, rather than patriotism/revenge?

Which "destruction batallions"?
Forest brothers, people who did diversions against USSR during and after war, were bandits. They were captured and punished by Soviet militia and NKVD forces according to Soviet laws.

Quotes of Lenin have nothing to do with Soviet ideology? USSR didn't just magically appear, it was created through that same revolution - which originally was intended to reach around the world eventually. And people were punished for "counter-revolutionary actions" well into 30-s. EDIT 1: Also, punishment was usually extended to families of the "criminals", which is contrary to basic human rights principles.

And Soviet citizens could be killed or deported just because they were deemed "socially dangerous" or "counter-revolutionary" - because such "offenses" were criminalized. You are right in that the trials were usually "formal" - sentences were often given without the defendant being present, the accused would not get a defender nor right to appeal.

Completely agreed, he wasn't. But if we take moral dimension out of this, actions of both were "necessary/useful" to their regime. And if we bring it back, I do not think that killing/discrimination based on race is somehow intrinsically worse than killing/discrimination based on class. Both are equally bad in my book.
EDIT2: For clarity, I do not think that Estonians or other Soviet minorities (possibly bar Chechens) were treated particularly worse / suffered more from Bolshevik regime, than Russians themselves. The only difference was that the kind of people destroyed here in 1940-s were destroyed in Russia already during civil war or in 1930-s.

The original question was "Why Stalin deported people?", and, as answer, "Why Hitler killed the Jews?". It's not the same.

In USSR could live people of any nation and any class, as long as they observed laws. In Germany, if you were born as a Jew, you had the only choice to flee.
 
German land forces in 1941 were unstoppable for anybody except USSR. (For US - probably could be if they would prepare, and blah-blah-blah). USSR could probably defeat Nazis without Stalin's dictatorship, because Napoleon, 1812 and so on. We can't be 100% sure if dictatorship was necessary, or not, I see the facts. Russia lost first world war under liberal (compared to Stalin) rule of Nikolai 2. In incomparably worse situation, dictator wins the war and make his country a superpower. I assume the facts that Russia lost WW1 and USSR was a superpower in 1960-s as commonly known.
I don't see why you refuse to admit that "liberalism" had nothing to do with "losing" WW1. Russia surrendered in freakin' 1918, the germans would not manage to knock Russia out on time. It was because of Lenin's treason, pure and simple.

If you want to see the facts, and judge if dictatorship was necessary or not, try looking at what happens when an ill prepared man like Stalin gets the final say in military matters. See how the Red Army got beaten repeatdly in the early stages of Barbarossa. See how the Purges left a void of competent officers that took it's toll.

A non-totalitarian gvt., like they had in Britain or the US, would let key military decisions to the military. I can guarantee that the outcome would be much more favourable to Russia had Stalin never lived.

Before and during war time, liberalism of Yeltsin or Gorbachev-style are deadly dangerous.
And yet the UK and USA seemed to do just fine.

I already wrote above.
If some group of Jewish people was deported - they were deported neither because Stalin hated Jews, nor because Soviet ideology demanded deporting Jews.
The reason of deportation was in illegal activities of the group of people, which was dangerous for regime or country (like collaboration).
And there you go wrong. Stalin did have deep suspicions about the Jews (Doctor's Plot anyone?), and deported many for this reason only.

I repeat, the overwhelming majority of the people deported were not dangerous for the regime. That's was the excuse, the cheap excuse.
 
Which "destruction batallions"?
Try to Google Штаб истребительных батальонов НКВД СССР
Or, alternatively, try reading the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_destruction_battalion_1941
Forest brothers, people who did diversions against USSR during and after war, were bandits. They were captured and punished by Soviet militia and NKVD forces according to Soviet laws.
The were people who fought against occupying power, against soldiers - since there were no Soviet civilians in Estonia, certainly not in 1941 anyway. This means they were freedom fighters.
The original question was "Why Stalin deported people?", and, as answer, "Why Hitler killed the Jews?". It's not the same. In USSR could live people of any nation and any class, as long as they observed laws.
Bollocks. Laws were often applied retroactively. Also, as I mentioned, collective punishment was rule of the day.
 
I don't see why you refuse to admit that "liberalism" had nothing to do with "losing" WW1. Russia surrendered in freakin' 1918, the germans would not manage to knock Russia out on time. It was because of Lenin's treason, pure and simple.

If you want to see the facts, and judge if dictatorship was necessary or not, try looking at what happens when an ill prepared man like Stalin gets the final say in military matters. See how the Red Army got beaten repeatdly in the early stages of Barbarossa. See how the Purges left a void of competent officers that took it's toll.

A non-totalitarian gvt., like they had in Britain or the US, would let key military decisions to the military. I can guarantee that the outcome would be much more favourable to Russia had Stalin never lived.

Success of totalitarian or monarhical country heavily depends on leader's personality. Saying Soviet people won the war despite Stalin's actions is the same as saying that some car reached destination point despite of driver's actions. Russia lost first world war not because Nikolay was "liberal", but because he was an incompetent ruler. Stalin was much more competent comparing to him.

And there you go wrong. Stalin did have deep suspicions about the Jews (Doctor's Plot anyone?), and deported many for this reason only.

I repeat, the overwhelming majority of the people deported were not dangerous for the regime. That's was the excuse, the cheap excuse.

There were Jews in the very top levels of Soviet government. For example, Kaganovich. Jewish doctors also treated patients from government. All this was impossible if Stalin had deep suspicions about the Jews, and of course nothing close to that was possible in Nazi Germany.
 
Try to Google Штаб истребительных батальонов НКВД СССР
Or, alternatively, try reading the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_destruction_battalion_1941

I see. Read here about that:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/&#1050...86;льевна
Particularly, about villagers Sviridov, Solina and Smirnova. They certainly are not considered as patriotic partisans.

For English speakers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya
The villagers who were involved in capturing her, later were executed.

The were people who fought against occupying power, against soldiers - since there were no Soviet civilians in Estonia, certainly not in 1941 anyway. This means they were freedom fighters.

The article speaks about people, making diversions against USSR after war, as partisans and patriots.
 
I don't like the USSR, or its ideals. It's history is too oppressive in my view. However, I do like the military uniforms, and the people I met from there, especially the Ukraine and St. Petersberg.
 
I see. Read here about that:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/&#1050...86;льевна
Particularly, about villagers Sviridov, Solina and Smirnova. They certainly are not considered as patriotic partisans.
For English speakers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya
The villagers who were involved in capturing her, later were executed.
Sorry, I do not get your point.
1) Zoya's story almost certainly was enhanced and tailored to create an inspirational figure for people. The article itself refers to controversies raised by Russian critics after the fall of USSR. But that is beside the point. Even if it were perfectly true, what are you trying to prove with it? That even Russian villagers weren't too pleased with Soviet partisans torching their houses? We may question the morality of Sviridov, Solina and Smirnova for their little willingness to give up their life and property for Stalin's cause and condemn them as traitors - feel free to do that if you like. But I hope you do not want to say that Estonians had any moral obligation to support Soviets who were trying to scorch their land over Germans?
2) You have yourself been strongly maintaining that "people who did diversions against USSR during and after war, were bandits. They were captured and punished by Soviet militia and NKVD forces according to Soviet laws". (at least during war, "punished" meant "executed on spot") You aren't accusing Germans for adopting the same point of view, are you?
The article speaks about people, making diversions against USSR after war, as partisans and patriots.
While I insist that definition of "freedom fighters" is correct both during and after war, this particular passage directly concerned men who fell in battle against "destruction battalions" while these were retreating in anticipation of German advance in 1941.

From wiki:
Spoiler :
Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. On June 25, Finland sided with Germany and declared war on the USSR, starting the Continuation War. On July 3, Stalin made his public statement over the radio calling for scorched-earth policy in the areas to be abandoned. Because the northernmost areas of the Baltic states were the last to be reached by the Germans, it was here that the Soviet destruction battalions had their most extreme effects. The Estonian forest brothers, numbering about 50,000, inflicted heavy casualties on the remaining Soviets; as many as 4,800 were killed and 14,000 captured.

Germans crossed the Estonian southern border on July 7-9. The 8th Army (Major General Ljubovtsev), retreated in front of the 2nd corps of the German Army behind the Pärnu River- the Emajõgi River line on July 12. As German 'troops' approached Tartu on July 10 and prepared for another battle with the Soviets, they realized that the Estonian partisans were already in fight with the Soviet troops. Wehrmacht stopped its advance and hung back, leaving the Estonians to do the fighting. The battle of Tartu lasted 'two 'weeks, and destroyed most of the city. Under the leadership of Friedrich Kurg the Estonian partisans drove out the Soviets from Tartu on their own. While Soviets had been in the process of murdering citizens held in Tartu Prison and had killed 192 before the Estonians captured the city.
 
Sorry, I do not get your point.
1) Zoya's story almost certainly was enhanced and tailored to create an inspirational figure for people. The article itself refers to controversies raised by Russian critics after the fall of USSR. But that is beside the point. Even if it were perfectly true, what are you trying to prove with it? That even Russian villagers weren't too pleased with Soviet partisans torching their houses? We may question the morality of Sviridov, Solina and Smirnova for their little willingness to give up their life and property for Stalin's cause and condemn them as traitors - feel free to do that if you like. But I hope you do not want to say that Estonians had any moral obligation to support Soviets who were trying to scorch their land over Germans?

There were not to much to enhance, and there were a lot of eyewitnesses and even photo materials of what had happened.

You asked for my point of view - for this it is the same as official Soviet or Russian. People like Sviridov are traitors and were punished rightfully. The same goes to Estonians who were willingly fighting against USSR and thus helping Germans, no matter what were their motives. It was war - what treatment to enemies can you expect?

2) You have yourself been strongly maintaining that "people who did diversions against USSR during and after war, were bandits. They were captured and punished by Soviet militia and NKVD forces according to Soviet laws". (at least during war, "punished" meant "executed on spot") You aren't accusing Germans for adopting the same point of view, are you?

Sorry, now I didn't get you. I'm not accusing Germans for killing Soviet people? I don't even know what to answer you. Or you meant something else?

While I insist that definition of "freedom fighters" is correct both during and after war, this particular passage directly concerned men who fell in battle against "destruction battalions" while these were retreating in anticipation of German advance in 1941.

From wiki:
Spoiler :
Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. On June 25, Finland sided with Germany and declared war on the USSR, starting the Continuation War. On July 3, Stalin made his public statement over the radio calling for scorched-earth policy in the areas to be abandoned. Because the northernmost areas of the Baltic states were the last to be reached by the Germans, it was here that the Soviet destruction battalions had their most extreme effects. The Estonian forest brothers, numbering about 50,000, inflicted heavy casualties on the remaining Soviets; as many as 4,800 were killed and 14,000 captured.

Germans crossed the Estonian southern border on July 7-9. The 8th Army (Major General Ljubovtsev), retreated in front of the 2nd corps of the German Army behind the Pärnu River- the Emajõgi River line on July 12. As German 'troops' approached Tartu on July 10 and prepared for another battle with the Soviets, they realized that the Estonian partisans were already in fight with the Soviet troops. Wehrmacht stopped its advance and hung back, leaving the Estonians to do the fighting. The battle of Tartu lasted 'two 'weeks, and destroyed most of the city. Under the leadership of Friedrich Kurg the Estonian partisans drove out the Soviets from Tartu on their own. While Soviets had been in the process of murdering citizens held in Tartu Prison and had killed 192 before the Estonians captured the city.

You may insist on whatever you want, in fact you are just repeating what is written in article. If it's your position, I already understood it.
The article of commission gathered by Estonian president, paid by Estonian government and published on Estonian website hardly expected to be neutral on this topic.
For wiki sources, I didn't find where this information is from, is that Mart Laar books again?
 
People like Sviridov are traitors and were punished rightfully. The same goes to Estonians who were willingly fighting against USSR and thus helping Germans, no matter what were their motives. It was war - what treatment to enemies can you expect?
How can you betray a foreign power?:rolleyes:
EDIT: Also, I don't expect any other treatment of enemies during the war - except for those taken prisoner, who should be treated according to international conventions. I take issue with your current judgement and especially term "bandits".
Sorry, now I didn't get you. I'm not accusing Germans for killing Soviet people? I don't even know what to answer you. Or you meant something else?
I meant that if you consider Estonian partisans bandits, it should be easy to accept a German point of view that Soviet partisans, including Zoja, were also bandits - and were punished rightfully. It was war - what treatment to enemies can you expect? Alternatively, you can admit that if Soviet partisans fighting against Nazi invaders were justified to do so, then so were Estonian partisans fighting Soviet invaders. Any third point of view would be simple hypocrisy.
You may insist on whatever you want, in fact you are just repeating what is written in article. If it's your position, I already understood it.
The article of commission gathered by Estonian president, paid by Estonian government and published on Estonian website hardly expected to be neutral on this topic.
I very much doubt this commission is getting paid anything. That would totally defeat its point. Besides, the reports are backed with verifiable source material. Besides, are there any specific facts or conclusions you find doubtful or illogical?
For wiki sources, I didn't find where this information is from, is that Mart Laar books again?
No idea, I have never read them. Why do you ask? Did you find something inconceivable in this extract again?
 
If you had bothered to read what they write,
Why wold anyone bother to read what an Estonian "commission" is saying about Estonian crimes or whatever. You clearly dont get it that it takes historians with credibility to prove anything, not paid politicians. How are you becoming a historian? By graduating. How do you get credibility. By not posting nonsense. Thats why you dont see any historian in that "commission". It is not my task, or anyone else's for that matter, to prove links you brought up, it is your task.

2. Shrug. The same people who are paying Russian Human Rights Movements, American Jewish Committee and Bundestag?
Yes. No. Maybe. first google link.
The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, Chicago, USA

$250,000 in support of work to promote human rights in Russia (over three years). (2007)
And the following 44 grands(for Russia), Same, different? The only important thing is who is paying all these people. :) Get real.
 
How can you betray a foreign power?:rolleyes:
EDIT: Also, I don't expect any other treatment of enemies during the war - except for those taken prisoner, who should be treated according to international conventions. I take issue with your current judgement and especially term "bandits".

Estonia was part of USSR, and Estonian citizens had the same rights and obligations, as, for example Russians or Georgians. Nationality doesn't matter, if Russian was helping Nazis - he was traitor, the same for Estonian.

I meant that if you consider Estonian partisans bandits, it should be easy to accept a German point of view that Soviet partisans, including Zoja, were also bandits - and were punished rightfully. It was war - what treatment to enemies can you expect? Alternatively, you can admit that if Soviet partisans fighting against Nazi invaders were justified to do so, then so were Estonian partisans fighting Soviet invaders. Any third point of view would be simple hypocrisy.

I'd like to remind you, if you forgot - Germans were invading power, killing and enslaving millions of my compatriots. Including Estonians. Yes, from their point of view, killing Soviet partisans was rightful. In fact, Germans were aggressors, Soviet army and partisans were fighting for liberation of USSR. Including Estonia.

For "forest brothers", we could discuss how to call them if they start some kind of resistance in 1940. In reality, they suddenly "recalled" that they were "invaded" only when Nazis started attack to USSR. That's nothing more than collaboration.

I very much doubt this commission is getting paid anything. That would totally defeat its point. Besides, the reports are backed with verifiable source material. Besides, are there any specific facts or conclusions you find doubtful or illogical?
I doubt that authors were unbiased. Facts and conclusions must be verified by independent historians, not by me.

No idea, I have never read them. Why do you ask? Did you find something inconceivable in this extract again?
You posted information, I asked where is it from. What is source, I can't find it? If source is wikipedia without reference, source is "someone said".
 
Estonia was part of USSR, and Estonian citizens had the same rights and obligations, as, for example Russians or Georgians. Nationality doesn't matter, if Russian was helping Nazis - he was traitor, the same for Estonian.
The only similarity between Estonia and Russia in 1940 in this regard is, that they both were ruled by a regime which was illegitimate (ascended to power not through honest elections, but by simple use of force and terror). This means citizens of USSR, neither Estonian or Russian, had no obligations whatsoever in front of it. If Russians decided to fight for domestic a-holes instead of foreign ones, it was their choice of lesser evil. But I'd remind you, that hundreds of thousands of them chose otherwise. More Russians fought on "the other" side than ever before or after WW2. That's got to show something.
I'd like to remind you, if you forgot - Germans were invading power, killing and enslaving millions of my compatriots. Including Estonians. Yes, from their point of view, killing Soviet partisans was rightful. In fact, Germans were aggressors, Soviet army and partisans were fighting for liberation of USSR. Including Estonia.
Yeah. We absolutely craved for your "liberation".
For "forest brothers", we could discuss how to call them if they start some kind of resistance in 1940. In reality, they suddenly "recalled" that they were "invaded" only when Nazis started attack to USSR. That's nothing more than collaboration.
Well, it obviously took some great PR moves from USSR to make people desperate enough. Killings and deportations, that is. I am, however, pleased that your respect towards us is great enough to imply that it would have been feasible for Estonia to take on USSR and its ally Nazi Germany both at the same time.
I doubt that authors were unbiased. Facts and conclusions must be verified by independent historians, not by me.
You are free to look for such independent historians. But I doubt you would anyone, even a personal friend of Stalin, who'd deny "extermination and deportation of Estonian bourgeois, counter-revolutionary elements".
 
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