v153 Caravel Upgrade

[Torvald]

When playing with v153 today, I upgraded a caravel to a frigate, but the firing range stayed at only one hex.

Was also using the mod "Units - Galleon", and the Galleons I built all did have the correct 2-hex range, as did the Ships-of-War I built.

Other than this Caravel upgrade problem, did not notice any other mod glitches.

 

[lukeloh]

Frigates are a Renaissance age unit and should only have a Range of 1 (Thal has made all pre-industrial naval units Range 1).

Did you try upgrading to a Destroyer later? Did the Destroyer have the correct range of 2?

With regards to the other mod you installed, those naval units are not part of VEM and so would have whatever range the mod creator gave them.

 

[Thalassicus]

Pre-industrial light ships are range 1. I left the Ship of the Line at range 2 to give it an advantage over frigates, and to realistically portray the larger bore of SotL cannon.

 

[Seek]

Perhaps the balance between SoTLs and light ships should be reexamined then - SoTLs are already incredibly powerful (with bombard and siege I was able to redline smaller cities with one shot last game!), and the range nerf on light ships weaken them a great deal. I don't see myself ever building one-range Frigates with the current unless my empire is terribly iron-deficient.

 

[Torvald]

Pre-industrial light ships are range 1. I left the Ship of the Line at range 2 to give it an advantage over frigates, and to realistically portray the larger bore of SotL cannon.

Okay, sorry, did not know that Frigates were supposed to have the shorter range.

It makes sense now.

 

[Thalassicus]

Frigates have several advantages:

• Free healing promotion.
• Upgrades from earlier units.
• Faster movement.
• Less cost.

I typically have 1 frigate for every 3 ships of the line.

 

[Torvald]

Okay,

With v154, Ships-of-the-Line (SOTL) are now also reduced to a 1-hex firing range, so I will need to quit using the "Units - Galleon" mod from whoward69, unless someone knows how to tweak it so Galleons also have the 1-hex firing range.

Sure hate to lose the 2-hex firing range on several ships, as I'm used to it. However, have been reading about the ship changes expected from the upcoming Gods & Kings mod, so guess it's better to switch to shorter firing ranges now, to make the eventual shift to ship melee attacks easier to adopt.

 

[Zaldron]

Okay,

With v154, Ships-of-the-Line (SOTL) are now also reduced to a 1-hex firing range, so I will need to quit using the "Units - Galleon" mod from whoward69, unless someone knows how to tweak it so Galleons also have the 1-hex firing range.

Sure hate to lose the 2-hex firing range on several ships, as I'm used to it. However, have been reading about the ship changes expected from the upcoming Gods & Kings mod, so guess it's better to switch to shorter firing ranges now, to make the eventual shift to ship melee attacks easier to adopt.

I actually just finished a game where there was only one tile of ocean adjacent to the city I was attacking. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been feasible to take it at all with range 1 ships because the defending units were doing significant damage. I would have had to have about 4-6 SotLs that I would rotate in and out of friendly territory to heal while moving in and firing one turn, taking my 10-15 damage, moving out the next turn, etc.

Is there another means to accomplish the desired end (what *is* the end here?) that doesn't make taking such cities nearly impossible? Or do we just live with it and bring land siege instead?

 

[rfxmills]

It looked like there was a consensus that taking coastal cities with just ships, and a longswordsman in a boat 3 hexes off shore, was too easy. A city sheltered from the coast should be difficult to take with ships alone and require a more traditional land approach with ships supporting. Once you get into the industrial era ships become more a threat to cities.

 

[Seek]

Perhaps range-1 ships should lose the "vs domain" penalty against land units, then (slightly lowering base strength if necessary) in order to raise their value as support units for protecting coastal invasions. I think ships lost a lot of their usefulness with the range change outside of exploration.

 

[rfxmills]

Perhaps range-1 ships should lose the "vs domain" penalty against land units, then (slightly lowering base strength if necessary) in order to raise their value as support units for protecting coastal invasions. I think ships lost a lot of their usefulness with the range change outside of exploration.

As early and mid game ships now have the range reduction, you could probably get away with dropping the "vs domain" for ships. Ships would be strong against units on the shore, but can't reach units inland.

Hopefully that would make embarked crossbowmen killable!!

 

[Seek]

As early and mid game ships now have the range reduction, you could probably get away with dropping the "vs domain" for ships. Ships would be strong against units on the shore, but can't reach those inland.

Exactly my thinking!

Edit: I've only played one game since the range change and Barb ships seemed to be a loss (there were 3 caravel replacements moving around more aimlessly than ever, never attacking my ship while I pounded the barb camp just two tiles away) - has anyone noticed if the AI can handle the one-ranged ships well? I worry they can't..

 

[rfxmills]

I think that's the Barbs being as rubbish with their ships as usual. They start with the range promotion now so should out-range civilised players if they choose to engage?

 

[Thalassicus]

However, have been reading about the ship changes expected from the upcoming Gods & Kings mod, so guess it's better to switch to shorter firing ranges now, to make the eventual shift to ship melee attacks easier to adopt.

I discussed plans for melee ships in the Navies thread. I feel Firaxis' version of ships in vanilla G&K was not implemented well.

Perhaps range-1 ships should lose the "vs domain" penalty against land units

This was done last month:

v149.3 - April 18
Armies

• Removed the inherent combat modifiers between ranged land and sea units.

 

[Seek]

Doh! Missed that, thanks.