[V2.4] Map/Dynamic Initial Unit/Non-hero AI related feedback and suggestions

[stmartin]

As the title said, we need map/Dynamic initial unit/Non-hero AI related feedbacks and suggestions. The most urgent one be Dynamic Initial Unit. Specifically, there are several things we want to hear from players:

• Which faction on which map is too difficult after it's initial unit vary with difficulty level? And why?
• Which faction on which map is still too easy? And why?
• Any suggestions concerning the initial worker/improvement/resource placement?
• Are there any strange AI behaviors, such as not guarding city?
• Is there any general suggestion as to how we should adjust the Dynamic Initial Unit mechanic? Such as give more options to players?

Cheers!

 

[Kenjister]

Hmm, forces such as Yuan Shao and Lu Bu, who start in the middle of a war tend to be really hard with dynamic starting units. Lu Bu for instance can't effectively survive if Cao Cao has 10 Qingzhou Rebels, 5 Ballista, and 3 Light Cavalry vs. 1 crossbow, 1 archer and 2 anticav battalions.
Perhaps it would be better if the AI didn't recieve increased starting units on sceranios.

I don't have any faction that is too easy, the powerhouses seem to be relatively balanced on all the maps. I due have an issue with the whole Liang region in all the maps however. The land is simply too poor to sustain any type of research or high level production. Even if you blitz Li Jue, capture Chang An, and cottage everything up, you're doomed because everyone else is 8 techs ahead of you and their land also has more long term potential. Finally, Wu Wei produces excellent Cavalry, but anything above the first tier takes too long to produce since the city never effectively grows above size three.
The point of this whole rant though is I believe the dominantly plains territory should either get many more food resources (to give better production and slightly better research) or many more commerce resources (to give them tech parity, though production will still hurt)
I favor the commerce resource solution myself however, as the region wasn't very populated compared to the central plains. The commerce solution would also prevent turtleing, since your land would still have much less potential, but allow tech parity up to at least the 2nd tier, which would give you enough time to perhaps break into Han Zhong or the Central Plains.

 

[stmartin]

Well yeah, their plains need some serious buffing. Ma Teng can go first when we start next development cycle, namely 'reworking everything around factions'.

 

[Kenjister]

Ok, now I'm going to contradic myself here... my Ma Teng game (Prince though, easier than normal) is turning out to be quite fun. I'm conquering all the weaker lords in the west now, and due to a huge tech diffusion (it's awesome) I'm actually not too far behind in techs. The only problem is Yuan Shao, who's about 14 techs ahead of the rest of us!

Production isn't really a problem after waiting 30-40 turns to build levees, and my recently conquered terriory is providing a decent research rate. I just took Han Zhong and have my sights set on Yizhou. Liu Zhang's Guerilla trait might put an end to all the cavalry fun though.

Either way, the point of all this is, probably only Wu Wei needs to be buffed. Tian Shui produces troops at a decent rate, along with the other cities. Wu Wei should be stronger though, since it ususally your core city and also one of the Eight Cities.

 

[stmartin]

Ok, buffing Wu Wei is much easier, I can do it in patch. Any particular suggestions?

 

[starcross]

give it a pig

 

[stmartin]

give it a pig

all right, or a sheep which is more likely.

 

[Kenjister]

you could also buff the sheep resource while you're at it. or give the Wu Wei city wonder a food bonus.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just tried a 194 AD game as Yuan Shao in deity. Had to reload 3 times just to get 1 Jizhou archer, 1 siege ballista and 1 light cavalry (probably the bare minimum), most of the time Ye was empty of troops. Just with these 3 troops (plus a lot of crossbows) I was able to conquer Gongsun Zan, but by then it was too late--Cao Cao had almost 5x his initial troops and just steamrolled over Lu Bu (poor little guy had no chance), and my science just couldn't catch up even though I got to both Jianan wonders. I did secure the Zhangs to the west and Yang Feng as vassals, and Guan Du is as fortified as I can make it. Just hoping for a cultural win now.

Can we PLEASE not use the dynamic initial unit thing for the AI?

 

[stmartin]

On Deity level you have about 25% initial unit, while the selected AI will replicate his troop 3 times, each time at a 75% rate. Keep in mind the sole purpose of dynamic initial unit is to give you PROPER challenge.

If you think that amount is too big, I can adjust the percentage of your troop reducing and AI troop increase.

 

[ORION11380]

I think the balance issue is that the game is too hard in the beginning, and too easy in the end, as most scenarios. When we go up in difficulty, rather than give the AI more and more bonuses and troops, is there some way of givin them a boost in the mid or end game? Like, after X turns, every AI that's weaker than the human gets a Y% boost in tech, until they surpass the human? And/or if they're <50% of the human's power, they get x2 tech, <25% they get x3, etc.

The game (and history) is really unfair to some of the smaller guys with 1 or 2 starting cities. Kong Rong, Wang Lang, Bai Bo, etc. doesn't stand a chance, and after 100 turns or so, they're way behind in everything.

The breakdown could be something like
If AI > Human in power, 100% tech rate
If AI < H, but over 75% of H, then 125% tech rate
If AI is between 50-75% of H, then 150% tech rate
If AI is between 25-50% of H, then 200% tech rate

 

[stmartin]

I think the balance issue is that the game is too hard in the beginning, and too easy in the end, as most scenarios. When we go up in difficulty, rather than give the AI more and more bonuses and troops, is there some way of givin them a boost in the mid or end game? Like, after X turns, every AI that's weaker than the human gets a Y% boost in tech, until they surpass the human? And/or if they're <50% of the human's power, they get x2 tech, <25% they get x3, etc.

The game (and history) is really unfair to some of the smaller guys with 1 or 2 starting cities. Kong Rong, Wang Lang, Bai Bo, etc. doesn't stand a chance, and after 100 turns or so, they're way behind in everything.

The breakdown could be something like
If AI > Human in power, 100% tech rate
If AI < H, but over 75% of H, then 125% tech rate
If AI is between 50-75% of H, then 150% tech rate
If AI is between 25-50% of H, then 200% tech rate

I share your opinion about late games are too easy. Your suggestion sounds good too, however, there may be some unexpected outcomes with these simple changes. For one thing, if the weaker AI got more tech bonus, then it might mean the stronger AI has a tougher time to expand, then it would lead to less competent AI opponent in general.