Vampires?

[Luckmann]

what game is totally missing is countereffect to vampires from sun mana. Every sun mana effect should be remarkably devastating to vampires - it was extremely funny to observe how "blinding light" was resisted by vampires

so my propositions: lvl1 sun spell scroch strips strips vampires from immunities ( maybe on cast affects up to 4 vampires)

therefore lvl 2 spell blinding light should affect vampires 100% plus reduces vampires attack and defence 30%

lvl3 spell summon aurealis: does + 100% dmg to vampires and after killing vampire heals himself fully.

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Vampires doesn't take damage from sunlight (and subsequently, Sun magic). All they experience is a minor discomfort.

 

[scutarii]

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Vampires doesn't take damage from sunlight (and subsequently, Sun magic). All they experience is a minor discomfort.

well, it depends WHAT lore you're reading

....foreseeing fierce discussion about "vampires" and "sunlight".

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Sunlight causes Vampires much more than minor discomfort. However, it is not lethal. In direct sunlight a vampire looses his usual superhuman abilities, probably becoming weaker than it would be if a normal human, and suffers considerable pain. They certainly don't just burst into flames though like in some mythos.


I tend to think sunlight probably is lethal to vampires in high amounts for long periods of time, as it can be lethal for normal humans. Vampires may be no more sensitive than the Irish though.


In my version I decided to make Blinding Light deal damage to vampires, but not be able to hurt than more than 50%.

 

[citizenalex]

Arrgghh! It's like they have two cures for the same disease!! All the bonus hammers you get from Manor and Pillar of Chains all amounts to jack because of "feeding time" being so practical during high unrest. XP or production...I want both!

 

[Luckmann]

well, it depends WHAT lore you're reading

....foreseeing fierce discussion about "vampires" and "sunlight".

I was, as MagisterCultuum, referring to FfH2.
Edit: And thanks for clarifying, Magister.

 

[scutarii]

Sunlight causes Vampires much more than minor discomfort. However, it is not lethal. In direct sunlight a vampire looses his usual superhuman abilities, probably becoming weaker than it would be if a normal human, and suffers considerable pain.

Well, I proposed that via sun mana spell vampires should lose their immunities

In my version I decided to make Blinding Light deal damage to vampires, but not be able to hurt than more than 50%

I proposed 30% negative effect

We're essentially on the same page.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What do you mean by "immunities"? Vampires don't have resistances to any damage types, they just have a +10% combat bonus and +5% healing. How would you propose having Sun Mana cost them this?


30% is probably more reasonable. I may reduce the strength of mine. Then again, the average damage mine does is only 5% damage, before being boosted by promotions. That means 30% basically is the max when cast by the empyrean UUs, and you can't actually get to 50% unless you also have Unholy Taint and Metamagic promotions (which basically limits that to Govannon-trained AV priests).


I didn't feel like adding a complicated python prereq that checks from both vampires and non-immobilized units, so adding the ability to damage vampires (which had to be done via python) means that this spell can always be cast, even when there are no targets. This also means the spell can no longer be used to detect Invisible units.

 

[cabbagemeister]

The way feasting unhappiness works is this:

One of the potential unhappiness factors is "We cannot forget your cruel oppression" which is ridiculous because they do forget fairly quickly. Possible sources of cruel oppression that they very easily forget is slavery whipping, vampire feasting, and various events - almost anything that says "temporary unhappiness" in its description (not the draft, separate mechanic, IIRC). The number of angry faces you get in the city for temporary unhappiness is directly tied to how long the unhappiness lasts. In a normal speed game (it scales based on game speed) 10 turns of unhappiness = 1 unhappy face. You always round up to the nearest whole number of angry faces, so 1-10 turns of temporary unhappiness = 1 angry face, 11-20 = 2 angry faces 21-30 = 3, etc. If a city currently has temporary unhappiness from one source and you cause more from some other source, it just adds to the number of turns of unhapiness in the city. If this doesn't increase it past the next multiple of 10, then it won't increase the number of angry faces. Using slavery always will because whipping adds 10 every time (regardless of pop lost). Easy way to determine who many turns of temp unhappiness you have left is to mouse over the slavery rush button and subtract 10 from the number of turns it displays.

Feasting causes 3 turns of temporary unhappiness (on normal speed), so if there isn't any temporary unhappiness in the city already, you can feast 3 times in one turn for just one angry face (9 turns of temporary unhappiness). Once 2 turns have passed, it will be down to 7 and you can feast once more without getting any extra unhappy faces. Past that you have to wait 3 turns between feasting if you want to maintain only one angry face from feasting.

Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I wish this was detailed in the in-game help text, but frankly it's probably a little too complicated to be succinctly explained.

Am I right then in thinking that you can feast once per turn for 4 turns in a row without getting more than 1 unhappiness?

 

[scutarii]

What do you mean by "immunities"? Vampires don't have resistances to any damage types, they just have a +10% combat bonus and +5% healing. How would you propose having Sun Mana cost them this?

Blinding light irresistable for vampires regardless of promos ( magic resistance etc) via scorch spell plus some dmg

If that is too difficult then do not change scroch and make blinding light 100% castable to vampires(again ignoring his promos) plus some dmg.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How about making Blinding Light give Vampires the Withered promotion? You could also make Aureales pass on this promotion to Vampires in combat, and to make Revelation have the effect too.

 

[Luckmann]

How about making Blinding Light give Vampires the Withered promotion? You could also make Aureales pass on this promotion to Vampires in combat, and to make Revelation have the effect too.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I'd love for this to get into FfH2 (even though Calabim is my new favourite civilization - just don't let it affect me if I'm the one casting it - I regularly run around with scores of Sun II Vampires ).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Vampires with Sun magic really don't seem right. I tend to think that the Calabim should have NONE as a UU for all the Empyrean units, and that their leaders (except Decius, who needs to be able to adopt it when he is a Malakim leader) should have a -100 weighting towards it.


Hmm...withered might be a bit much for Vampires following Esus, which is thematically the best religion for them. How about making the Feast spell also remove Withered from the caster?

 

[Jules.lt]

That could be good.

And thanks Izmir
That's exactly what I wanted to know.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I wish this was detailed in the in-game help text, but frankly it's probably a little too complicated to be succinctly explained.

Am I right then in thinking that you can feast once per turn for 4 turns in a row without getting more than 1 unhappiness?

You are welcome. And yes:

Turn 1 # 0
+3=3
Turn 2 # 2
+3=5
Turn 3 # 4
+3=7
Turn 4 # 6
+3=9

Never went over 10, so you are good. Feasting again on turn 5 would bump you up to two , but it would drop back down to 1 next turn.

 

[Luckmann]

Vampires with Sun magic really don't seem right. I tend to think that the Calabim should have NONE as a UU for all the Empyrean units, and that their leaders (except Decius, who needs to be able to adopt it when he is a Malakim leader) should have a -100 weighting towards it.


Hmm...withered might be a bit much for Vampires following Esus, which is thematically the best religion for them. How about making the Feast spell also remove Withered from the caster?

Pfft. Thematic is in the eye of the Beholder.
I argue that it's a blessing by Junil to carry out his divine will. The fact that we use a weapon that can hurt us too is only natural. We're Vampires for god's sake. Not monsters!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Why would it be a blessing by Junil to serve Lugus, whom Junil finds slightly annoying?

Lugus hates vampires. There is no way he would grant vampiric disciples divine powers. Perhaps an insane vampire would use sorcery to wield the power of the sun, but the sun magic that a Vampire unit can have comes from the Radiant Guard whose ability should be considered divine magic instead of sorcery.

It might be possible for a vampire to repent, beg Lugus for forgiveness, never use the ritual again, and have the curse removed so that he can serve Lugus, but in that case the vampiric follower of Lugus isn't really a vampire anymore.

 

[JFSebastian]

I think its important to remember that one of the major strengths of the game is its versatility of role playing civs in different ways, ways that are often in contrast to the established lore. Considering all the intrigue and backstabbing there is among the gods and their surreptitious influence among powerful mortals and other members of creation, its not difficult to rationalize many different scenarios. While some might find it ridiculous to play vampires as champions of the light, for others its an interesting change from the stale norm.

Also, while traditionally vampires have been harmed or averse to sunlight, from what I've read the vampires in FfH2 are NOT traditional vampires.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They are not your typical vampires, but they are hurt by sunlight. They aren't hurt as much as vampires in most other sources, but the harm is caused by a curse placed on them by the Sun God as punishment for consuming the soul of one of his devout followers. Vampires and Lugus have a long standing hatred for each other. Vampires as champions of Law make sense, but championing Light does not.

 

[JFSebastian]

What if Lugus chose to lift the curse for some reason? Atonement? Exchange for service? Extortion from another god? They are under his thumb and serving a purpose of his design? I'm certainly not very familiar with the lore, but neither are most players. The question, is it important to enforce this particular mechanic for lore reasons?

On the other hand, perhaps vampires need some sort of unique counter? The vampire promotion is a VERY strong ability. Something that can help defend against them, yet not be too easy to get ahold of might be a good addition. It shouldn't be easy to acquire though. Light I & II are far too easy to acquire to tie the ability to in my opinion.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Vampirism in Erebus isn't a disease like in a more traditional modern vampire mythos, it is the result of a truly dark ritual that vampires perform fairly regularly. They don't subsist on blood, they devour the soul of their victim. Every use of the ritual is a particularly vile form of murder, that deprives the victim of both life and their afterlife. The ritual extends the vampire's life by nearly however long the victim could have lived, and also enhances physical and mental prowess, but it also dehumanizes him and makes him ever more monstrous as he delights in the destruction of others. For anyone to use this shows that their conscious is very lacking, and they need some greater reminder than a normal man in order to reveal to them their guilt and hopefully drive them to repentance. While it has never been said in this way, I tend to think that Lugus is not naturally vindictive and so his curse is probably an attempt to reveal to them the guilt that they hide form themselves in order to give them a hope of redemption, whether by drawing out their actual guilt or using physical pain to replace the emotional torment that such a depraved mind no longer experiences.

Lugus is extremely unlikely to give in to any extortion. He is the embodiment of Truth, Honesty, Openness, and Revelation, so blackmailing him is impossible as he would want all the secrets to come out.


Lugus is much more forgiving that Junil, so I could see him removing the curse from a specific vampire whom was truly repentant. However, he would never remove the curse from someone who would continue to act wickedly. As such, a repentant vampire would not be a vampire anymore, and would have to give up all the advantages his dark gift had given him. If an elder vampire who has lived far longer than his mortal life repented he probably could not live very long, but may be reconciled with the sun god in his death and possibly spend eternity serving him in his heaven.



While Lugus is much more likely to seek redemption and reconciliation that Junil is, he stops far short of Sirona. He seems to try to combine their aspects in fairly equal levels. Sirona would go out of her way actively seeking bring the wicked back into the fold and never seek to punish them. She would of course have them work to make life batter for others, but that would be expected of those who never sinned as well. If they sin again, she will forgive them again. It is extremely unlikely for Junil to ever forgive anyone, especially in life. Lugus would take a middle route, seeking to redeem them but being very careful about it. He would try to make the consequences of their sin very clear to them first, carefully testing those returning to make sure they are sincere and not trusting those who return enough to let them fall back again. He is not that likely to forgive those who keep returning to the same sins over and over. His emphasis is to reveal the seriousness of sin and enlighten us so that we would of our free will not choose to return to it. Lugus is still rather stern, but he is very fair and what harshness his has is directed at enlightening and edifying those to whom he may seem harsh. Junil would rather keep everyone in line, and is willing to sacrifice the few for the sake of setting an example to keep the many in the straight and narrow. Junil punishes for the sake of society, while Lugus punishes for the sake of the punished.



A Sun I counter to vampires probably is to strong, but I don't really think that Sun II spell or a Vicar spell against them would be. We aren't talking anything lethal, of course. Having each sun promotion provide a small bonus against the vampire promotion might be another option.