Vassals, when and how long?

[andersw]

I've generally conquered cities on my way to capital and capital and then vassaled the AI.
Main reason is to reduce prolonged wars over land that I don't really need.

Are there any reason (for us non Daleks) to exterminate an AI instead of vassal it.

Are there any reason to release the vassal?
I guess there could be a rare occation where extra land is for monopolies, then I could release and stomp the remaining cities.

I saw someone mentioned possibility of vassal before taking the capital for temporary ally but that probably means I've already almost stomped that AI, sure in a tight situation maaaaybe once in a blue moon.

Have you ever had a vassal break free from you?
I would assume that includes getting handily stomped by a different AI.

Is there a way to turn off peace vassaling?
This could cause me to turn off vassals, really annoyed me in Civ4 as well.

Will the vassal always vote for me?

Vassal diplo.
Compared to civ 4 diplo in VP makes it (for me atleast) a lot more difficult to get the vassal happy with me.
Should I turn on tech trading to easier please my vassals?
Or will they just get sarky again when I go stomp next AI?
Currently just trading them luxuries at a good rating.

Vassal tax.
It is cool to get a bunch of free units from my vassals when entering a new era.
Do I get anything else and do they count as an ally for and buildings/traderoutes/beliefs (there are some cases where number of allies are mentioned)?

Useful vassal.
Have you had a vassal be useful for wars?
Now I play on king and a crippled AI is very little use in wars, well a ship here, an archer there, a bit of comfort thats about it.

 

[Txurce]

Great set of questions.

Playing non-domination, I don't see why you'd exterminate instead of vassalize. I also see no reason to release a vassal, but am curious about others' opinion on this. And I've only had one vassal demand its freedom (this was maybe a year ago or more).

Vassals vote for you to be host of the WC and (I think) in the UN. Making them happy is a 50-50 thing. I always try to, but sometimes it's hopeless.

 

[Drakul]

In my opinion a great option would be to be able to gift vassals with gold or faith which in turn would make them have a good opinion on you so that you can actualy become a "nice" emperor xd Also in my opinion having a vassal should give you about 15% of his unit supply. Makes somehow sense..

 

[Deadstarre]

I would have asked "Vassals: Why?". Initially I played with them through a lot of games when I didn't know any better, and then ultimately I turned this feature off and never looked back. Still not sure I understand what exactly is the appeal here as a game system, it seems be an optional feature which can take people who are in a great position already (those capable of handily winning wars, which already carries huge benefits) and then make their life even easier, give them more bonuses and create comfortable runaway situations.

As with any 'extra' system it carries gimmick appeal and probably roleplaying appeal, but i'm over those. Admittedly it's been awhile since I played any game with it, any chance you'd explain to me what exactly you find appealing about playing with vassalage OP?

 

[andersw]

any chance you'd explain to me what exactly you find appealing about playing with vassalage OP?

I do not find it gimmicky nor any other optional check boxes.

Not having to hunt down every single small crappy city to get rid of a civ, ie less chore, sure enough some players enjoy this but I think games are long enough already.

Admittedly it was more important in civ4 considering how domination victory worked there.

 

[andersw]

In my opinion a great option would be to be able to gift vassals with gold or faith which in turn would make them have a good opinion on you so that you can actualy become a "nice" emperor xd Also in my opinion having a vassal should give you about 15% of his unit supply. Makes somehow sense..

Well, we want things to be reasonably balanced, that doesn't always equal making sense, also who's sense, mine or yours?

Anyways this wasn't a thread for "what do we want?", it was "how does it work?".

 

[Moi Magnus]

I would have asked "Vassals: Why?". Initially I played with them through a lot of games when I didn't know any better, and then ultimately I turned this feature off and never looked back. Still not sure I understand what exactly is the appeal here as a game system, it seems be an optional feature which can take people who are in a great position already (those capable of handily winning wars, which already carries huge benefits) and then make their life even easier, give them more bonuses and create comfortable runaway situations.

As with any 'extra' system it carries gimmick appeal and probably roleplaying appeal, but i'm over those. Admittedly it's been awhile since I played any game with it, any chance you'd explain to me what exactly you find appealing about playing with vassalage OP?

When you are crushing an other civ, at some point, the war stop being fun, but you can't just stop the war like that and start a more interesting war because your ennemi will recover from it and counter-attack. Any game where the optimal choice is also the boring one has a problem in its design.

Vassalage allow to "not bother to much with borring wars" without being sub-optimal.

Also, civ is missing a very important feature of strategic games: joint victory. Vassalage does not correctly patch this, but its still something in this direction. If you start considering that "a vassal has half a victory when its master win", volontaristic vassalage become an interesting strategic decision.

 

[andersw]

When you are crushing an other civ, at some point, the war stop being fun, but you can't just stop the war like that and start a more interesting war because your ennemi will recover from it and counter-attack. Any game where the optimal choice is also the boring one has a problem in its design.

Vassalage allow to "not bother to much with borring wars" without being sub-optimal.

Also, civ is missing a very important feature of strategic games: joint victory. Vassalage does not correctly patch this, but its still something in this direction. If you start considering that "a vassal has half a victory when its master win", volontaristic vassalage become an interesting strategic decision.

I guess I should not have given a reason, pls I wanted to know how it works and how others deal with it, not what is good, bad or overpowered etc.
Check questions in original post and look to answer those instead.

 

[Deadstarre]

lol fair is fair, you answered my question, ill give it a go =)




Are there any reason (for us non Daleks) to exterminate an AI instead of vassal it.
on-conquer bonuses

Are there any reason to release the vassal?
I guess there could be a rare occation where extra land is for monopolies, then I could release and stomp the remaining cities.
same, and you answered this too

Have you ever had a vassal break free from you?
no

Is there a way to turn off peace vassaling?
no

Will the vassal always vote for me?
yes

Should I turn on tech trading to easier please my vassals?
shouldnt matter, a trade modifier is a trade modifier

Do I get anything else and do they count as an ally for and buildings/traderoutes/beliefs (there are some cases where number of allies are mentioned)?
City states are allies, not vassals

Have you had a vassal be useful for wars?
*any* use is some use, so yes of course =)

 

[RAuer2]

I find vassals useful but it changes from game to game. It depends on details like geography, politics, where resources are, and so on. With that said...

Buffer zones. I prefer to fight wars in other people's lands rather than my own. Once I expand as far as I want to in a given direction, I consider trying to make my neighbor in that direction a vassal. If an enemy comes at me from that direction, then they go through the vassal first.

Less management. If I want to beat the tar out of a neighbor but I really don't want to control a bunch of new cities, then I make them a vassal.

Vassals don't raise my own science/culture cost. I get to extend my influence without making my own research more difficult.

Trade partner. It is likely that the vassal borders your empire and the entire route covers safe ground. This gives you safe and reliable international trade routes and that can matter in some circumstances. Definitely situational.

Religious spread. Vassals get double pressure, presuming that I am remembering that detail right (away from home atm). This means that your religion should spread to the vassal like wildfire and be difficult for a different civ to remove. Depending on your religion's beliefs, the cities of the vassal should also count as "foreign" cities. A vassal is generally under your control (certainly more reliable than foreign cities under a rival civ's control).

I'm sure there are others and I am sure that not all of the above will matter to everyone. I really do think it is situational, so I am not sure how helpful these answers are.

 

[andersw]

lol fair is fair, you answered my question, ill give it a go =)




Are there any reason (for us non Daleks) to exterminate an AI instead of vassal it.
on-conquer bonuses

Are there any reason to release the vassal?
I guess there could be a rare occation where extra land is for monopolies, then I could release and stomp the remaining cities.
same, and you answered this too

Have you ever had a vassal break free from you?
no

Is there a way to turn off peace vassaling?
no

Will the vassal always vote for me?
yes

Should I turn on tech trading to easier please my vassals?
shouldnt matter, a trade modifier is a trade modifier

Do I get anything else and do they count as an ally for and buildings/traderoutes/beliefs (there are some cases where number of allies are mentioned)?
City states are allies, not vassals

Have you had a vassal be useful for wars?
*any* use is some use, so yes of course =)

Thank you!

 

[andersw]

I find vassals useful but it changes from game to game. It depends on details like geography, politics, where resources are, and so on. With that said...

Buffer zones. I prefer to fight wars in other people's lands rather than my own. Once I expand as far as I want to in a given direction, I consider trying to make my neighbor in that direction a vassal. If an enemy comes at me from that direction, then they go through the vassal first.

Less management. If I want to beat the tar out of a neighbor but I really don't want to control a bunch of new cities, then I make them a vassal.

Vassals don't raise my own science/culture cost. I get to extend my influence without making my own research more difficult.

Trade partner. It is likely that the vassal borders your empire and the entire route covers safe ground. This gives you safe and reliable international trade routes and that can matter in some circumstances. Definitely situational.

Religious spread. Vassals get double pressure, presuming that I am remembering that detail right (away from home atm). This means that your religion should spread to the vassal like wildfire and be difficult for a different civ to remove. Depending on your religion's beliefs, the cities of the vassal should also count as "foreign" cities. A vassal is generally under your control (certainly reliable than foreign cities under a rival civ's control).

I'm sure there are others and I am sure that not all of the above will matter to everyone. I really do think it is situational, so I am not sure how helpful these answers are.

Yes, the buffer zone is a huge thing, maybe even more so in coastal areas, thats despite AI somewhat struggle with naval warfare..

Religious spread is nice but if I conquer the areas I would have even more religious dominance, but I see what you mean, I can prob send a few missionarys and convert their cities..

 

[Bromar1]

Releasing a vassal gives them a positive diplo modifier with you, so if you sense that your vassal is getting friendly with your rivals and might declare war on you, it can save you a ton of headache to avoid that situation entirely by turning them into a friendly independent empire

 

[Enginseer]

FUN FACTS:

20% of the Vassal's Population is added to the Master's Happiness!
20% of the Vassal's Culture, Science, and Faith is added to the Master's!
10% of the Vassal's Unit Maintenance is paid by the master along with 80% of the Vassal's Population multiplying onto the 10%!
33% increased Tourism and Religious Pressure from the Master toward the Vassals!

It also takes 100 Turns to revassal someone unless you do some quick-edits to change that into 0...

 

[Dawnpromise]

It also takes 100 Turns to revassal someone unless you do some quick-edits to change that into 0...

Care to point us in the direction of what to edit? I've had moments where annihilation was the only option because a vassal liberated itself from my enemy and I couldn't subjugate them for my own empire. It's the number 2 source of killed civs in my games aside from peace negotiations being 'impossible' too soon after they declare war (most wars are decided within 5 turns in my experience and I play on epic speed so...).

I generally love taking vassals in when I can (usually becomes a late/post game goal for me). It's generally a good idea to take vassals unless you're explicitly out to take their lands for your own.

 

[Rekk]

Vassals who are friends with their master's enemy gain the backstab penalty when their master declares war. Is this desirable? Are vassals not allowed to have friends outside of their master's friends, especially if they were forced into capitulation? What if their master is planning on back-stabbing one of his own friends, but the vassal thought the friendship was real and joined in?

 

[andersw]

FUN FACTS:

20% of the Vassal's Population is added to the Master's Happiness!
20% of the Vassal's Culture, Science, and Faith is added to the Master's!
10% of the Vassal's Unit Maintenance is paid by the master along with 80% of the Vassal's Population multiplying onto the 10%!
33% increased Tourism and Religious Pressure from the Master toward the Vassals!

It also takes 100 Turns to revassal someone unless you do some quick-edits to change that into 0...

Thanks interesting details, that explains why I tend to culture dominate my early vassals.

 

[Emufarmers]

Vassals who are friends with their master's enemy gain the backstab penalty when their master declares war. Is this desirable? Are vassals not allowed to have friends outside of their master's friends, especially if they were forced into capitulation? What if their master is planning on back-stabbing one of his own friends, but the vassal thought the friendship was real and joined in?

It's always seemed pretty undesirable to me. I would guess it's just a side effect of the way the vassalage system is implemented on top of the diplomacy system.

 

[Enginseer]

It's always seemed pretty undesirable to me. I would guess it's just a side effect of the way the vassalage system is implemented on top of the diplomacy system.

More like vassals lose their political independence and thus are forced to either declare their independence before it happens or face the consequences.

 

[Rekk]

More like vassals lose their political independence and thus are forced to either declare their independence before it happens or face the consequences.

That would make sense if the consequence we are talking about was more than that the AI receives a penalty in the diplomacy system.

Do I misunderstand the true repercussions of this? Should I permanently mistrust an AI because she was forced to declare war on one of her friends? The AI are told to be, but I don't believe the AI is less trustworthy because of this action.

From what I understand, the diplomacy system is meant solely to help the AI act more like the player. I believe this rule achieves the opposite.