Vassals...

[Moi Magnus]

There is and was a lot of discussions about vassals recently. So here is some questions:

1) Should vassals be easier to obtain through war?

Currently, you have to have 100 85 warscore, which can be particularly annoying and unfun, and sometimes impossible even though you could take all their city in one turn.

2) Should vassals that are content with their master still play to win, or should they play for their master's victory?

Not sure about the exact state of this currently in the code.

3) Should having vassals be nerfed or buffed?

Currently a vassal share 20% of its science/culture, and produce some units at each new era. Moreover, you can tax it between 0% and 25% (not sure about the upper bound) of their GPT. There is also a lot of minor modifiers (like easier influence to your vassal, ...). And finally, they will vote for you for the diplomatic victory (but not necessarily for the votes before that)

4) Should being a vassal be nerfed or buffed?

Currently, being a vassal does not cost all that much. You lose your freedom, but assuming you chose the good master, its not a problem. You have a free defensive pact with a powerful civ. Your master has bonus yields and free units. (You don't lose any unit or population when your master make a levy). This last thing can be a problem if your master is the leading civ, but not that much. The only real downside is the capacity of your master to tax you, which may or may not be a problem, since the master can chose not to tax you.
(For this question, please don't forget that some vassals are voluntary)

5) How should sanctions and vassal interact?

Should you be able to trade with your vassal disregarding the sanctions? Should your vassal be affected by your sanctions?

6) Any other suggestion?

And finally:

[Feature Request] Should you be able to trade your vassals with other civs?

(I know it will never happens in Vox Populi, but that would be a fun feature)

 

[CppMaster]

1) Should vassals be easier to obtain through war?

Yes, about 75 war score may be a good threshold (is it just a threshold?)

2) Should vassals that are content with their master still play to win, or should they play for their master's victory?

Both, but the more they like their master the more they should help him. If they hate their matter they should play against him and try to free themself.

3) Should having vassals be nerfed or buffed?

Vassals should support their master more with resolutions if they like him. Also master could get part of their votes for free, like when trading votes.

4) Should being a vassal be nerfed or buffed?

Maybe a vassal could research faster techs that their master have already researched. They often fall way behind, when they lost capital. They could also have higher yields from trade routes with they master to catch up a bit and simulate assimilation. It would be beneficial for both of them, but a vassal would be more likely to liberate themself, because they won't be that much behind.

5) How should sanctions and vassal interact?

Vassal should always be able to trade with their master, but shouldn't trade with other civs if their master is sanctioned. Moreover, they shouldn't vote to sanction their master, but against that, because it would harm them.

[Feature Request] Should you be able to trade your vassals with other civs?

No, it makes little sense to me.

 

[Recursive]

And finally, they will vote for you for the diplomatic victory (but not necessarily for the votes before that)

They might also be required to vote for you as WC host. They've always done that even when they've hated me. Heh, you know my opinion regarding vassals and sanctions.

Currently, you have to have 100 warscore, which can be particularly annoying and unfun, and sometimes impossible even though you could take all their city in one turn.

I'm not sure 100 warscore is required, I've obtained a vassal with a warscore of 88 before...but it definitely has to be close to 100.

2) Should vassals that are content with their master still play to win, or should they play for their master's victory?

Definitely still play to win. This is Civilization. That said, see below.

3) Should having vassals be nerfed or buffed?

Note that it's raw GPT you get (before their expenses), which is powerful. Putmalk proposed an idea regarding being able to tax strategic resources from your vassal, although he hasn't designed that yet.

I would support extra benefits for treating your vassal well. Whether they love you or hate you, they still adamantly refuse to vote Nay on sanctioning you if you're far enough in the lead. They remain fierce competitors with you. While I consider competitive AI a feature rather than a bug, the issue in this case is that if you get nothing for treating them well, you aren't going to treat them well. It encourages play which hurts them.

Given that, there's no real reason for me NOT to tax all my vassals at 25% GPT, steal resources I want with citadels, demand stuff constantly, denounce them, etc. Treating them well only makes them less likely to be hostile to you, but if you've vassalized them chances are very good your military can easily take them, were they to rebel.

I think the current "Vassal Opinion" of your treatment of them could use some reworking, too. For example, proposing to sanction them or stealing their lands should probably get a penalty; unsanctioning them should be a good thing; and if a Barbarian ship manages to get a hit on their coastal city, I shouldn't get a permanent (or very long duration) negative modifier for failing to protect their lands; that modifier only really becomes relevant if a city is actually captured, but yeah.

And liberating their cities (especially ones that you didn't let get captured), should probably be seen as a good thing.

I don't agree with giving the vassal's votes to the master, but I could support a bonus delegate per vassal, or something like that.

4) Should being a vassal be nerfed or buffed?

Buffed, if it's changed at all. I like Cppmaster's ideas; vassals are weak and I think leaving them alive should offer benefits but also give them a chance to come back.

[Feature Request] Should you be able to trade your vassals with other civs?

I disagree with this idea. Huge buff for humans, and not very logical.

 

[chicorbeef]

Currently, you have to have 100 warscore

I just vassalized a civ with 90 warscore, I think that's a good threshold.

 

[Txurce]

I'm happy with vassalization in general, as it works now. The issues I still have are:

1. The threshold at which a civ should capitulate. This should be a lower warscore than the one used now. It gives both victor and loser more to gain from peace. I would emphasize the size of the defensive forces. If your army is wiped out, you would surrender, no matter how healthy your cities may be.

2. Should vassalization be a choice? A civ defeated to this level should always offer to capitulate. But the victor should have the option to "pass" on the vassalization aspect of a peace treaty.

 

[Gazebo]

85 is the threshold. I don't intent to add or remove any other features to the Vassalage system, as it's technically not my mod.

G