Version 2.8 discussion

[Sarkyn]

Thank you Zappara.

I want you to know I take great pleasure from this thing you've created, and I appreciate all your work on it.

 

[FoulFoot]

Here's the Unit xml file with the unitAI fixes plus few other tweaks.

For what it's worth, I installed this, then loaded up a "problem" game that had the looping AI bug. And it got past that turn! So far so good.

Foul

 

[zappara]

For what it's worth, I installed this, then loaded up a "problem" game that had the looping AI bug. And it got past that turn! So far so good.

Foul

That's good news then

 

[NCC1017spock]

I have a question? You seem to be releasing alot of little things that go into 2.7.1? Is there going to be on large 2.7.1 release? With all the little pieces put together, or a just one large 2.8 release?

 

[zappara]

I have a question? You seem to be releasing alot of little things that go into 2.7.1? Is there going to be on large 2.7.1 release? With all the little pieces put together, or a just one large 2.8 release?

There will be only one large 2.8 release because some major components change between v2.71 and v2.8. For example BUG mod is being updated from v3.6 to 4.0 and that involves lot of small python changes to most RoM's python files and some old files aren't needed anymore and must be deleted which is why I can't make a patch since those old files would cause problems - so I got to release the full mod in one package. Also new RevDCM version might change lots of things but that remains to be seen - don't know when glider gets the next version ready.

 

[FoulFoot]

For what it's worth, I installed this, then loaded up a "problem" game that had the looping AI bug. And it got past that turn! So far so good.

... and, it's locked up again, about 50 turns later. This may mean nothing, however, since it wasn't a fresh game.

Foul

 

[DRJ]

Yes same here, unfortunaly my old savegame didn't work again either...

As you, I still hope it'll work in the way that AI doesn't build up loop situations anymore from now on...

 

[zappara]

Yes same here, unfortunaly my old savegame didn't work again either...

As you, I still hope it'll work in the way that AI doesn't build up loop situations anymore from now on...

Well, the UnitAI change that I made only applies in few specific situations - basically the change adds transport capability for ships that start out with 0 cargo amount but which have been promoted with Transport I-III promotions. Those promotions increase cargo amount and for that reason ships require UNITAI_ASSAULT_SEA and few were missing it. Of course there can be still other not so obvious causes for this bug... for example the cause could be in the land units that the AI player tries to load into ships.

 

[vincentz]

Did the BetterAI team ever get to work with the Worker AI?
I seen a lot of stupid moves from the AI workers, but this one propably beats them all :

The AI is tearing up a Town in order to build a farm when there is a jungle next door.

 

[zappara]

Did the BetterAI team ever get to work with the Worker AI?
I seen a lot of stupid moves from the AI workers, but this one propably beats them all

I think they are working with some worker AI improvements, not which BtS AI version will have those changes. There's a thread about this in Better AI forum section.

Zappara, for the future era a few techs are left out that should be in the game. Early static holograms already exist, but dynamic holograms still are yet to be invented. This could be an idea for the future era.

Holograms was among the tech choices I had before making the new Transhuman era but I had to drop it out just like many other tech choices because that era was growing too huge - it's now a lot longer era than any other - there's 65 or so Transhuman era techs and all other eras have 35-50 techs. Adding more techs would have required me to add 2 new future eras instead of one.

Is there going to be more holy war type stuff? for non-Christian religions?

Not sure yet. I'm trying to find any historical referencies to actual holy wars that were caused by other religions than christianity - like how Islam spread to India etc. The progress with such research is slow and in most cases very little is told about the actual troops, what kind of equipment they had, what they were called, what holy sites were involved that could be used as national/great wonders etc? I'm not expert with religion history so I'll appreciate any help with this. For eaxmple take a look at List of Wars in Muslim world - the amount of information that needs checking/reading is massive and this is just about one religion and RoM has 11!


I'm also trying to find out what future might bring to our cities ie. what new buildings/wonders are there under construction?
Here's few I've found:
5 amazing buildings of the futurel
wind-powered skyscraper
Floating building for water rising refugees

 

[Sinapus]

Well, the UnitAI change that I made only applies in few specific situations - basically the change adds transport capability for ships that start out with 0 cargo amount but which have been promoted with Transport I-III promotions. Those promotions increase cargo amount and for that reason ships require UNITAI_ASSAULT_SEA and few were missing it. Of course there can be still other not so obvious causes for this bug... for example the cause could be in the land units that the AI player tries to load into ships.

Does the <DomainCargo> flag have to be set to something for a ship to be able to use the transport promotions?

 

[vincentz]

Did the BetterAI team ever get to work with the Worker AI?
I seen a lot of stupid moves from the AI workers, but this one propably beats them all :

The AI is tearing up a Town in order to build a farm when there is a jungle next door.

LOL. The "stupid" AI worker move was a trojan horse. I didnt do my espionage homework properly so after thinking that the AI was less clever than a vacum cleaner I decided to attack as two of the other superpowers was already at war with him and his navy was resting at the bottom of the sea. Well... Big mistake... The picture was taken the turn after I declared war, and while most of my units have 100+ xp I'll surely loose them all


Yep, that is 18 riflemen and 40+ cavalry plus the loose stuff

 

[Afforess]

Zappara,

I know you have mentioned before that you have no C++ abilities, but have you ever considered compiling your own DLL instead of strictly using RevDCM's? I have never formally learned any coding, but I've found that the C++ in BTS isn't that complex and offers so much more functionality than what XML or python has to offer. At the very least, you could make your own DLL with no knowledge off C++ with all the guides, use RevDCM as a base and merge in pre-made components from others.

I seriously think that a mod as big as RoM should have its own custom DLL. It is so limiting to continue using someone else's work, because you are completely dependent on (read: at the mercy of) others time schedule.

Anyways, my 2cents.

@vincentz,

That's priceless.

 

[zappara]

Zappara,

I know you have mentioned before that you have no C++ abilities, but have you ever considered compiling your own DLL instead of strictly using RevDCM's? I have never formally learned any coding, but I've found that the C++ in BTS isn't that complex and offers so much more functionality than what XML or python has to offer. At the very least, you could make your own DLL with no knowledge off C++ with all the guides, use RevDCM as a base and merge in pre-made components from others.

I seriously think that a mod as big as RoM should have its own custom DLL. It is so limiting to continue using someone else's work, because you are completely dependent on (read: at the mercy of) others time schedule.

Anyways, my 2cents.

@vincentz,

That's priceless.

I've considered it many times (I've read the DLL guides) but the risk of breaking something in the merge process and then to not be able to fix it with my skills has been the factor that has prevented me from trying. I've said I can't really program but some decade ago I had to study various programming languages in the university (C++, Delphi, visual basic, pascal, Fortran, SQL) but I've never had to use them anywhere and I was never good at making programs with any of those languages. I do have the basic knowledge about logic, algorithms, optimization etc. which has helped me with modding.

Even if I did succeed making my own DLL I would still be dependent on RevDCM, Better BtS AI and BULL (BUG's new DLL version) as those are essential parts of my mod. So I prefer to leave the task for professionals. I can always wait for new releases as I have no rush in developing my mod.

Does the <DomainCargo> flag have to be set to something for a ship to be able to use the transport promotions?

Yes, or the cargo type if for example you want to have Destroyers be able to carry missiles with those promotions but no other land units.

 

[NBAfan]

Zappara, Bug 4.0 was released today!

 

[Bezhukov]

How difficult would it be to add the plant forest worker action into 2.8? A lot of the AI worker difficulty revolves around its mismanagement of flatland at a point in the game where the lumbermill would be clearly optimal, especially since the AI freaks so badly over unhealth* (I wonder if it knows how to build health buildings sometimes). Alternatively, allowing all improvements on forest tiles might also significantly improve AI play, although I suspect it also likes to chop-rush**, which is almost always a bad move in RoM, given the sheer number of hammers needed to do anything long-term and the power of lumbermills, or even forested workshops.

AI's with significant rivers/hills do quite well - it's flatland causing the problems.

Likewise, in RoM it's crucial to get new cities up to speed with basic infra while letting the core handle military, but the AI tends to stick to its BtS plan of letting new cities build their own defenses (including, ruinously, military infra like naval academies that take centuries to build). Is there any way to tweak this for RoM?

* - BTW, why are the effects of global warming always bad? I would think that it would cause as many ice tiles to thaw as fertile land to become desert, and higher CO2 killing trees makes no sense.

** - Any rushing strategy (light-bulbing, pop-rushing, chop-rushing) is significantly weaker in RoM, which, with its vast wealth of techs and buildings, rewards the blocking and tackling of the CIV series - working good tiles. It's what makes RoM great, just wish the AI could join the fun.

 

[zappara]

Zappara, Bug 4.0 was released today!

And I had it merged to RoM last friday Got to check if their new release has anything changed from their latest SVN version that I had merged.

 

[Afforess]

Hey Zappara, could you add Johny Smith's Specialist Stacker? It is right here, and it is python only. I think it would look better than the current way RoM displays specialists.

 

[vincentz]

How difficult would it be to add the plant forest worker action into 2.8? A lot of the AI worker difficulty revolves around its mismanagement of flatland at a point in the game where the lumbermill would be clearly optimal, especially since the AI freaks so badly over unhealth* (I wonder if it knows how to build health buildings sometimes). Alternatively, allowing all improvements on forest tiles might also significantly improve AI play, although I suspect it also likes to chop-rush**, which is almost always a bad move in RoM, given the sheer number of hammers needed to do anything long-term and the power of lumbermills, or even forested workshops.

AI's with significant rivers/hills do quite well - it's flatland causing the problems.

Likewise, in RoM it's crucial to get new cities up to speed with basic infra while letting the core handle military, but the AI tends to stick to its BtS plan of letting new cities build their own defenses (including, ruinously, military infra like naval academies that take centuries to build). Is there any way to tweak this for RoM?

* - BTW, why are the effects of global warming always bad? I would think that it would cause as many ice tiles to thaw as fertile land to become desert, and higher CO2 killing trees makes no sense.

** - Any rushing strategy (light-bulbing, pop-rushing, chop-rushing) is significantly weaker in RoM, which, with its vast wealth of techs and buildings, rewards the blocking and tackling of the CIV series - working good tiles. It's what makes RoM great, just wish the AI could join the fun.

I think it is nearly impossible to make AI grow forrests. It require a dll change just to allow human players to grow forrests (see jooyos terraforming mods) but I dont think the AI uses it.

Maybe just allowing chopping at a later stage than bronze working. Does anyone have examples of RL civilizations that chopped down huge areas of forrest before medieval era? Most improvements would have to be changed so they worked in forrests/jungles (though many already do). Another way to tackle it was to make growth of forrest much more aggresive than now. I think I read somewhere that Zappara allowed growth on tiles with a path now. Maybe expand that idea.

Personally I think the lumbermill is useless. A workshop is much more powerfull (especially with proletariat) and on the river the watermill is way too powerfull (IMO) being the same as a lumbermill but with 3 more food at my current stage in the game (with electricity)

 

[Sarkyn]

Am I mis-remembering, or do Forests not have a late-game bonus of some kind with a particular Civic?

So that a lumbermill becomes a more balanced choice in endgame as it takes away health/happiness problems rather than creating them?