very difficult game

[jack08642qa]

Im by no means an expert but am not a beginner either, in this game I started in a nice spot near the top of the map but there was a huge problem of NO RESOURCES of any kind except ivory

I was also blocked from expanding any further by the americans who expanded ultra fast in all directions and I was way behind in technology

this is only a regent level game but I turned ai aggression to the max

I managed the workers myself until all the most important improvements were done and then set them to auto

seeing as how I was so far behind on tech, blocked by the americans and had no resources I started an immediate war with the americans capturing new york and washington then peace'd them taking over 200 gold and most of the tech i didn't have then went right back to war

after that a few aztec units showed up then a few turns later a couple huge stacks and of course they attacked me taking washington and threatening everything I have, the only good thing about this was that they had an iron city that was kind of close to take and finally at least get iron

I went for the iron city with 12 archers and a spearman for defense and wasted all the archers on the iron city killing 2 spearmen, and making a regular pikeman into an elite with 1 health left, and a medieval infantry unit killed my spearman

at the same time I had slowed down the aztecs huge advance and nearly stopped it until a few turns later they started sending new stacks of medieval infantry and knights

after that I peace'd them wasting 180 gold doing it and accomplishing nothing and repeace'd the americans

the current situation is that I am still in the ancient times and the ai's are at least half way done with the medieval age by now and I have nothing but a huge negative income and see no possible way of ever winning this now

here is the save View attachment Im Screwed.SAV

 

[templar_x]

hi jack,

i had a look into your save. let me make it blunt so there are no misunderstandings: your position is so bad because you are simply playing this particular game worse than the Regent AS. now let us go into some detail:
-government: you have Monarchy and struggle along in Despotism. and i am sure you could have Republic by now which under most circumstances is the best government available in C3C.
-you do have loads too many Units sitting in towns. 2 are ok for MP, everything else is useless if not necessary due to a near front. you got tons of units far away from the front sitting in towns without use.
-if you had more units fighting, you would lose more units and have more land. both would reduce your insane unit costs.
-why don´t you simply take Washington with force and build horses?
-archer armies are quite worthless, spear armies would have been better to cover your stacks.
-why didn´t you explore the world? 2 curraghs or galley and by now you could know everyone.
-workers tasks: there are some of the most useless works done i have ever seen. like the mine on the mountain east of Heidelburg. when do you think you are ever going to work that one?
-your towns are by no means micromanaged. they are wasting tons of shields and commerce. or the mines @Konigsberg where you lack food.
-the city placement is not very good but no catastrophe. the city improvements however are one. why temples if you nowhere reach the happycap? barracks in corrupt Areas? wealth in Heideburg??

i concede that your start was really poor, with not a single BG on your peninsula... but the main factor why you feel you are in such a bad position is yourself...

t_x

 

[Puppeteer]

Welcome to CFC! This place can make you a better player. I'll take a look at the save and probably play some turns to see if/how I can turn it around.

Meanwhile, here are some resources for other readers who want to see what's going on. I'll attach a screenshot or two and show you my work-in-progress, an online map viewer for Civ3 Conquests saves. With this link you can paste in a link to a save game like your attachment, and it will load the map. But it's still a bit clunky to use so here is a direct link to a zoomable/scrollable map of your world. (This kind of thread is exactly what my project is for.)

Screenshots:

Spoiler :

Mil advisor:

Power histograph:

Demographics:

Culture histograph:

North/home territory:

Southern known world:

 

[Puppeteer]

Here are some things of note before I even get into it much:

• Domination and Conquests are the only two victory types enabled
• Huge continents world, 60% water, normal climate, temperate, 5 billion years, raging barbs, normal AI aggression (contrary to what I read above)
• Since space victory is disabled there is no space race screen, so I can't verify how many opponents, but based on demo screen and "huge" world I'd say there are 15 opponents
• All three known opponents are up Construction and Republic and into the MA
• Player is putatively 6 turns from Construction but out of money and must stop research based on current income and expenses.
• Judging by wonders, known opponents are at least three techs into MA. Sun Tzu and Knight's Templar are complete. Nobody we know is building Sistine or Leo's, and no one has completed them, so we can infer Mono, Feud and Chivalry are known but not Theology or Invention.

From my point of view your start could have been much better. And based on your description I am guessing your reputation is shot...if I read right you attacked people within the 20-turn peace deal?

But Conquest and Domination are the only two victory types, so nobody is going to vote themselves to a win or build a spaceship. You have the time and resources to dig yourself out and catch up. We'll show you how!

Early keys: Meet more civs! This lowers tech costs, introduces tech trade opportunities and opportunities for treachery. Control expenses: without even looking I bet I'm going to sell a bunch of buildings and maybe disband some troops. Increase income: city size and worker improvements will be looked at. War effectively: you took cities, but your conquered lands were too far away and too isolated to effectively keep them.

Edit: Oh, and get out of Despotism. You can win by domination or conquest in Republic, but based on your apparent play style, the possible victory conditions, and the fact we already know Monarchy and are painfully behind in tech I expect to be hitting "revolt" very, very soon and become a Monarchy a few turns later.

Edit 2: I was curious based on the histograph how much the starting settler was walked around. It was only one turn, and I like where Berlin is. It has 5 BGs in it's adjacent 8 squares, another BG and 3 hills in its fat x. Very nice capital placement.

 

[vmxa]

Berlin is still size 6, needed to get to Construction asap. Should have been a priority. Did I not see a wonder like MoM? Why? Shields were needed for troops. If a leader, then IDK.

I think I would not have made settlers and landed on the islands, if you got them from a peace deal, I would have disbanded them. You do not have the time or resources to mess with them right now.

They will contribute only a bit of free unit support, which can be gotten from taking better locations. Later you can grab them.

Like was stated, contacts would have be useful. Get the boats out early in all games.

Workers need total management. No mines on mountains in the AA, unless it is a critical need or wars force workers to stay close. Group up some to get a task done in a turn or two. Make sure the tile being improved is useful now, not later.

Roads are a priority, especially once you knew you had few resources. That meant war and very soon. Workers need to improve the core first, with only roads to new location and towns excepted.

 

[Puppeteer]

I haven't played any yet. I went to get lunch first. Is this accelerated production or just modded? You need 10 food to grow and 10 shields for archers and 5s for warriors. How is the tech rate and opponent production set?

 

[Puppeteer]

I still haven't taken a turn, but around lunch and other lazy household activities I've made a lot of changes in the same turn. We'll now get Construction in 3 turns without running out of money.

Spoiler :

Note: Apparently accelerated production enabled.

Needs:

Construction and aqueducts
Reduce expenses
Meet more civs
Increase income
Get out of Despotism

Near-term plans:

Revolt to Monarchy
Re-task workers to sane actions
Begin sea exploration

Medium-term plans:

Leverage accelerated production to get aqueducts and other necessary buildings
Ruthlessly build and sell my 10s barracks as needed
Use new contacts to get ahead in tech and money

Long-term plans:

Take over continent
Use Aztec's Crusaders against our neighbors via alliances
However, avoid Aztec becoming complete monster civ

Core city assessment:

Berlin:

Great placement, tremendous shield capability.
With AP can easily build 1-turn archers
Needs aqueduct and maybe harbor if going to work coastal tiles.
Plan to build marketplace (4 turns!)
Consider selling barracks to save money; can rebuilt it in one turn!
Can be MM'ed for less shield waste and more commerce

Leipzig:

Has a clown and stuck at size 5. WTH?
Has one unimproved tile and one roaded forest.
This city is a bit crowded, probably needs harbor to work coast for income

Hamburg:

Size 5, about to grow. Why is this small?
Will need a harbor to work coast after size 6
Has temple, will sell with extreme predjudice
Has barracks

Heidelburg:

Size 4 with harbor, temple, barracks. What's it building? Wealth.
Has one grass tile, one tundra tile, two hills (shared with capital) and two mountains.
This town will sell temple and probably sell barracks. Its job is commerce and it needs aqueduct and market and maybe courthouse

Frankfurt:

Lands need improvement
Has barracks, will probably sell and build aqueduct, courthouse, maybe market and then rebuild rax
Harbor probably not needed here.

Konigsburg and Munich:

Sell temples, possibly sell rax while building non-military
These cities and Frankfurt are too close. Konigsburg was clearly placed for the ivory, but this rank should be productive, and it's too crowded.
Thinking about razing Konigsburg to allow Munich and Frankfurt to grow with aqueducts.

Other cities:

Sell temples, probably sell rax unless they are front line and I'm expecting war. Build courthouses if they are going to be productive someday.

Island cities:

Based on warring to date, it's going to take too much effort to hang on to these, and for what? The next strategic resources to reveal are saltpeter and coal, and neither should be on that island based on terrain. My first thought was to gift them to another civ--not Aztecs--but with accelerated production I might have them produce galleys for a while and then gift them away.

Then again, maybe Bonn could produce some settlers from that cow. We seem to be short on food bonuses.

The big picture:

The core cities should have good shield and commerce capability, but there are no core food bonuses, so I need to get settlers coming from the river wheat and maybe the island.

Conquest:

We need resources, but America doesn't seem to have any. But they are the next target, so we'll have archer/spear battles soon. The only wonders on the continent worth taking are in Aztec's capital which is too far away to consider anytime soon.

Oh, Washington has horses, but the Aztecs hold it now. Hmmm. We'll have to figure out how to get at those horses.

I also see iron now, but Aztecs have that, too. Well, I guess we'll consolidate territory, spar with America and then rush the horse and iron cities. Before then it might be nice to scout around those cities. Maybe I can use a worker to scout.

Tech:

The secret to tech is to meet the other continents. Opportunities will arise. We can infer that the other continents aren't well ahead of ours, so maybe we have some broker opportunities.

Workers:

The Northern core is good enough for now, but we need lots of work just to the south of the core, and we need war roads.

Consolidated plan:

Considering all of the above, I think I need to stay in Despotism for a little while longer. I'm not losing much commerce due to Despotism because of the land, I'm not missing out on food in the core, and although I'm missing some production we're in accelerated production and I'm already outproducing my capacity to pay for it all. So I need to finish Construction, get aqueducts and in some cases courthouses and marketplaces and then revolt. Right now the drop in unit support going to Monarchy would hurt a lot.

I'm eager to see if a disbanded spear gives me 5s or 2s under accelerated production. If it's 5s I'm about to rebuild the empire by disbanding military. Even if not, disbanded military will give us a boost.

We see Portugal's capital, and it looks like it could be on another continent. Guess where my galley is going first?

Opening Moves:

Sell all temples.

Lux to 10% for Munich for a turn or two.

Sell barracks: Heidelburg, Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig, Munich, Konigsburg, Nuremburg, Frankfurt

Berlin -> worker (will grow back go 6 the turn after)
Leipzig -> Marketplace, and fire clown
Hamburg -> Marketplace
Nuremburg -> Courthouse
Munich -> Settler. It's unhappy at size 6 and needs more food. Let's reduce that pop and build a courthouse until the core is built up to support the lux rate to help Munich.
New York -> Courthouse. Change clown to scientist.
Hanover -> Courthouse
Stuttgart -> Settler
Cologne -> Galley, fire the clown.
Brement -> Courthouse
Island cities Bonn and Salzburg -> Galley and make lone citizens scientists.

Abandon Konigsburg. It's in the way, and the fastest way to make that area better is to burn the city down.
Disband a reg spear in Munich, it only give 2s, but still settler due in 1 turn now.
Disband a bunch of spears here and there to contribute to new builds and lower unit support costs.
Disband the catapults towards some courthouse shields.
Disband some archers, but not disbanding to below 4 archers in frontline cities yet.

Move western army toward iron to scout out the area.

Science to 50%, Construction in 3 turns at -6gpt. Have 61g now due to building sales.

Still "strong" compared to Portugal and America. Plan to disband more military next turn.

Workers: Stop the mountain miners and send them towards southern core. Will leave the gold-roading worker...maybe. He has no movement this turn, anyway. Stop the plain-miners, make them start irrigating. Leave chopping and roading workers as-is. Stop island worker, will get them off-island when I can.

What's missing? I need an FP...maybe in Nuremburg, but I think I'll finish a courthouse there for now. Too many other priorities, and maybe I'll get a leader for FP. Yeah, I just disbanded a bunch of military, but I can build it back in a big freakin' hurry.

Same-turn 30 BC save after my adjustments

 

[Puppeteer]

Ok, I've played 24 or 25 turns. Germany has met Korea, Inca, Russia, Maya, France, China, Sumeria, Netherlands and Iroquois. Germany has learned Construction, Feudalism (ok this was the free tech), Engineering, Monotheism and Chivalry.

They have all been peaceful turns, but I'm about to DoW on America to consolidate territory then pivot to try to take horses and iron from the all-powerful Aztecs. I have 28 horsemen now, all from trading ivory and 8gpt to Aztecs for horses and furs. I build no other military units, and in fact I disbanded a surprising number of them.

Germany is a Monarchy, and it torched one of its own cities and settled a new one. The two island cities will be gifted away soon or when they are threatened. Germany has 3 settlers but is tentatively planning to keep conquered cities.

Spoiler :

30 BC, turn 126:

Take over save
Make lots of changes that are detailed in another post.
​

10 BC, turn 127:

ACK! Lots of units on auto-move. Clear continental rally point. Disband some more military. Berlin worker -> market. Munich settler -> courthouse.
​

10 AD, turn 128:

Aztecs boot my army. Kill a stray barb. Apparently workers are automated. Sci to 30%, still Construction in 1.
​

30 AD, turn 129:

Construction, Feudalism
Middle Ages
New York courthouse -> wealth until lone citizen is happy. Aztecs are building Leo's. Oh yeah! Free tech! I get Feudalism, woot! Portugal does not have Feud but is up Republic. Might make that trade to have Republic to trade to other continents. Aztec and America have mono, and Aztec also has Engineering (and Invention, apparently). Change 5 core cities to aqueduct. Notice I have trade route to Aztecs but can be cut off by America. Concerned about him demanding ivory and connection being cut. Hey, Aztecs will take ivory for horses straight-up. I may do that before he demands ivory from me.
​

50 AD, turn 130:

Dortmund
Trade for horses, furs
Leipzid aquaduct -> market. Nuremburg courthouse -> galley. Sumeria completes Leo's, so at least one other continent is slightly ahead of us. Dortmund -> courthouse, placed to take up space, prevent others from settling the area. Put the island workers on the galley headed back home. New galley sails out of Cologne. Portugal has Feud now, so much for that trade opportunity. Realized I'm playing sloppy and didn't change my research options. I'm 1 turn into 30% sci into Engineering. Switch to lone scientist, continue on Engineering. Sci to 0, put island citizens back to work; I'll whip the galleys when they grow. Decide to trade w/Monty. I get horses and furs, he gets ivory and 8gpt. I'm concerned about the trade route, but he's going to demand ivory sooner or later, anyway. Change Cologne and New York to build horsmen. Other rax cities will follow when they finish current builds.
​

70 AD, turn 131:

Berlin duct -> market. Frankfurt duct -> horseman. Chinese complete Sistene Chapel. Whip galley in Bonn.
​

90 AD, turn 132:

America boots my scouting army. Galley defends against barb galley. Hamburg duct -> harbor. Hannover courthouse -> galley. Bonn galley -> galley. Still catching and stopping automated workers.
​

110 AD, turn 133:

Revolt
Booted from Aztec and America. Munich Courthouse -> Aqueduct. Only 2 turns left on America peace deal. Thinking about taking Los Angeles, but that might break my trade route with Aztecs. Okay, I think I'm ready for Monarchy. But first: ANARCHY! 7 turns.
​

150 AD, turn 135:

Built a horseman in anarchy due to forest chop!
​

170 AD, turn 136:

Aztecs delcare war on Inca! Why don't we know Inca yet? Neither are seafaring, and neither has GLH, so I'm guessing the Inca are on or close to our contient.
​

190 AD, turn 137:

Meet Korea
Korea does have GLH and proved it by floating along the sea towards my scouting galley. They are up at least Republic, Mono and Engineering. SE galley spots pink/purple border, think we'll meet Inca soon.​

210 AD, turn 138:

One of the automated workers managed to make it all the way back up to the north mountain before I spotted him trying to make a mine. (Oh, that was probbly the one I left roading the gold mountain.)
​

230 AD, turn 139:

The Inca (?) border is one tile into land, and I can't make contact. Ah, found a water border I can touch.​

250 AD, turn 140:

Monarchy
Adjust cities. For some reason I can now go to zero lux? Was I not getting credit for the furs before? I have 10 turns left on the Aztec deal. I want to be attacking America when that ends.
​

260 AD, turn 141:

Contact w/Inca
Hamburg harbor -> market. Bremen courthouse -> horseman. Inca are up Repub and Mono.
​

270 AD, turn 142:

Berlin market -> rax. Leipzig market -> rax. Lux to 10%. Change Cologne to galley; gotta meet more peeps.
​

280 AD, turn 143:

Berlin rax -> 1-turn horsemen. Palace expansion? Okay, um, thanks.
​

310 AD, turn 146:

Engineering, Monotheism, Chivalry
Meet Russia
Portugal boots my boats! Oh, but it works in my favor! New continent, meet Russia! My rep is shot on my continent, but not on hers yet. 531g and 2gpt to Russia for Engineering. Trade Engineering to Inca for Monotheism and 35g. Trade Engineering to America for Chivalry! America, F yeah! Research to Invention at lone scientist. Why research when you can get three MA techs for about 540g?
​

320 AD, turn 147:

New contacts: China, France, Netherlands, Sumeria
Uh-oh. I have many new contacts; Printing Press is out there. We may be farther behind than I thought. And Korea can trade contacts, and they know at least Aztecs and Portugal and probably America. So my trade broker monopoly is out the window, but I still have the human advantage over the AI. I have Engineering over Portugal, but everyone is up at least Republic and most Invention and Theology.
​

330 AD, turn 148:

William offers contact with Maya for 7g. 7g? YEAH! Gilgamesh wants 60g for contact with Iroquois. Let's put a pin in that one. China offers the same deal. And Joan. Maya are down two AA techs. Wonder if the Iroquois are worth 60g, but I think I just sailed into their culture borders.
​

350 AD, turn 150:

Meet Iroquois
Suicide galley makes it to Iroquois. They are up Republic but down Engineering and Chivalry. My 20-turn deal with Aztecs is over so it can end honorably, although my rep seems to already be blown. I think it's time to attack America, consolidate some territory then try to get horses and iron from the Aztecs. Notice that Sumer is building Copernicus. Well, at least America doesn't have anything to buy others into a MA with me. Here goes:
​

The 350 ad save

 

[Puppeteer]

Well, at first I was rolling America, then somehow they found a stash of knights.

Spoiler :

350 AD, turn 150:

Los Angeles
Meet Iroquois, DoW America
Suicide galley makes it to Iroquois. They are up Republic but down Engineering and Chivalry. My 20-turn deal with Aztecs is over so it can end honorably, although my rep seems to already be blown. I think it's time to attack America, consolidate some territory then try to get horses and iron from the Aztecs. Notice that Sumer is building Copernicus. Well, at least America doesn't have anything to buy others into a MA with me. Here goes: Start by attacking a stray American horseman: vet archer defeats horseman unhurt. (He was backed into a corner, was curious if he could retreat.) Vet horse attacks fort reg spear in Los Angeles: wins at 1/4. Again: loses, spear promotes to 2/4, still on top. Another horse: wins, promotes 3/5, takes city! 13/13 archer army attacks vet horse fort on a hill, wins at 11/13. Take a couple of workers. Vet horse takes a reg archer fort in grass, wins 3/4. My trade route with the Aztecs appears to be intact; I still have horses and furs. Raise lux to 20% in case he pulls the deal this turn.
​

360 AD, turn 151:

Houston
Aztecs end the resource deal. I'd rather not commit to 20 more turns with him, but I have 28 horsemen and think I'll need more. This time I trade ivory and 13gpt for only horses. French are building Cop's. Try something dumb: send a lone vet horse against fort reg spear in Detroit: retreats, defender unhurt. Notice France is sailing along in the sea: they have Astronomy, but we knew that when they started building Cop's. So we're down at least 5 MA techs to the leaders, but we're not last place, either. America has rushed a pikeman in Houston. Game on. Vet horse against reg pike, not fortified, in Houston: horse wins unhurt! Vet horse vs. fort reg spear: retreat, spear 2/3 and still visible. Next vet horse: takes the city at 3/4! Getting silly again, but America seems lightly defended: Lone 3/4 horse vs fort reg spear in Cleveland: loses a hp to archer bombrd but wins, promotes 3/5. Another spear visible. Uh-oh, America has a knight on Boston.
​

370 AD, turn 152:

Cleveland, Boston
Lose a horse to the knight, knight goes back to Boston at 3/4 I think. Defensively killed two horsemen, defending archers helped a lot. Koreans building Cop's. Lux to 30%; core cities are growing. Let's try Cleveland again: 12/12 archer army vs fort reg spear: wins unhurt, takes city. D'oh, they pulled the archer out. Take out a stray horse, promote 4/5. 3/5 horse attacks reg archer in open, dangerous leader-fishing: lose the horse, archer at 1/3. Finish it off with a vet horse. 15 vet horses. Size 7 Boston on a hill. Bad idea? Probably. But I'm impatient. Let's do this! Fort reg spear: kills one horse unhurt. Kills another horse, promotes 2/4, new reg spear showing. Horse wins unhurt, another reg spear on top. Next horse dies, 1/3 spear disappears and 2/3 knight on top. Knight defeated! Horse at 2/4. 2/4 spear on top. Horse dies, spear promotes 2/5. Horse dies, 1/5 spear hides, 1/3 spear on top. 1/3 spear dies, horse promotes elite. Horse wins at 1/4 and takes city. 11/13 archer army attacks reg knight S of Boston: wins at 7/13. Change Stuttgart to worker; I'm going to start joining workers to the core cities.
​

380 AD, turn 153:

Lose several battles to knights, including my hurt archer army. Get the FP popup. Let's start with Detroit: Horse dies, defender 2/3, reg spear back on top. Archer: wins, promotes 3/5. 2/3 spear back: archer loses, defender promotes 3/4. Last attacker: defender redlines but wins, promotes 2/5. 4 or 5 attackers will be ready next turn. Now Buffalo:
​

So now I need to figure out exactly what my war goal is. I don't want to attack Aztecs yet, and I'm starting to push too far out to defend well, especially with knights showing up. On the other hand, with accelerated production and limited access to horses I need to keep making them and throwing them at an enemy until I have my own horses and iron.

Aztec is at war with Inca which is good. All their troops and ships must be dedicated to that, because I'm not seeing much Aztec movement.

It's tempting to get tech from America for peace and build up horsemen to overrun the Aztec resource cities, but I produce several horsemen per turn under AP so I would run out of money quickly that way.

I'm also wondering if I'm doing tech wrong Does AP apply to tech? Maybe min research isn't a good idea in AP?

 

[Lanzelot]

Good progress so far. But one more tip: Berlin is too remote to be a useful capital. Only 4 towns can be considered "first ring status"... Disband Berlin and jump the capital to Boston: there you'll have good lands (a cow) and enough room for a full first and second ring.

 

[Puppeteer]

Good progress so far. But one more tip: Berlin is too remote to be a useful capital. Only 4 towns can be considered "first ring status"... Disband Berlin and jump the capital to Boston: there you'll have good lands (a cow) and enough room for a full first and second ring.

That's a fantastic point. I'm used to playing standard-sized maps, and I could make that 5-city core work on a standard-sized map, but now that you mention it this won't cut it for a huge map. I'm not used to palace jumping, so it never occurred to me. But yeah, America's lands are way, way better, and putting a palace there prevents culture flip worry, at least for the capital. And with accelerated production building infrastructure is stupid fast. And Boston is on a hill, so I hopefully can absorb whatever America has left for me and whatever Inca left Aztec with when we start warring. Wow, with all the food bonuses along the river I can build up a new core while sparring with the remnants of America while Aztec is distracted by Inca.

So if I pick this game up again--I'm starting to burn out on civ for now--I would build some courthouses in and around the old core (except for the northernmost city...I doubt that's worth trying to make productive), let the river cities grow and jump the palace.

 

[Jivilov]

[*]Huge continents world, 60% water, normal climate, temperate, 5 billion years, raging barbs, normal AI aggression (contrary to what I read above)

Sorry to sound dumb but how do you figure this out? In my current game I picked random for map, temp and barbs but can't tell what the results were. Where do you find this info? Thanks.

 

[vmxa]

iirc CAII will give you this info. Can be found as a d/l in the utilities forum.