Viability of Heavy SE with no tech trades

[Kiershar]

I was wondering, is it possible to be competitive with an heavy SE in an immortal/deity game with tech trades off?

From my understanding, to be able to compete you need to lightbulb cultural techs that the AI don't research so you can then trade that tech for numerous others. It seem to me that the viability of the SE is greatly improved by exploiting the known pattern of the AI research.


So in short the main question is : 1. Can you win Immortal/Deity with no tech trades using SE?

Secondary question : Assuming no tech trades again, 2. Can a SE compete in total beakers researched against a Cottage Spam+first few cheap GPs (Academy, oracle slingshots, ect)

For the second question, I am persuaded that the SE will be ahead in the early BC/AD.
The third question here is : If YES to question 2, 3. When will the SE lose its beaker advantage?

Keep in mind that the cottage economy uses the first few very cheap GP, so it is not 0 Great people CE vs 7+ Great people SE; the CE will get a minimum of 2-3 GP. Also the conditions are ideal in each scenario, CE having financial and SE having philosophical. If your calculations are even more advanced, please assume that, for equality purpose, the SE gets Pyramids and the CE gets Oracle. Assume all smart moves are pulled off for both scenario (Ex. The SE will still make cottages where its viable, like in the capital for bureaucracy).

Also if you have explanations, screenshots and theory, please post!

 

[DaveMcW]

Don't be an economist! Support diversity of economic options within your empire!

 

[Kiershar]

Don't be an economist! Support diversity of economic options within your empire!

I know that. The question is, would you go heavy specialist if there are no tech trades.

 

[UWHabs]

If you're assuming ideal cases and smart moves, then you no longer have "CE" or "SE" anymore.

 

[DaveMcW]

Could a sprinter outrun a car with no tires?

Who cares?

 

[Kiershar]

If you're assuming ideal cases and smart moves, then you no longer have "CE" or "SE" anymore.

At one point you are gonna be choosing between running specialist or working cottages to grow them in the long run. These are trade-off and both can be ideal depending on the situation. The situation is "There are no tech trades. What do you do". Will that affect your decision?

 

[Kiershar]

Could a sprinter outrun a car with no tires?

Who cares?

I care, do you have a valuable answer?

 

[UWHabs]

If you really wanted to compare, craft a map:

Elizabeth (for Fin/Phi)
isolated/no tech trading (ignore spoils of war)
No huts/no events (popping good things)

craft an island. One way, heavy floodplains. Another way, grassland/jungle. Another way, plains with lots of food sources. Another way, a mix. Stone in BFC (if you want pyramids)

Then see what strategy gives the most beakers by 1000BC/0AD/1000AD, how many people used cottages vs. specialists, vs everything.

My guess is the winner will use some of everything.

 

[Kiershar]

If you really wanted to compare, craft a map:

Elizabeth (for Fin/Phi)
isolated/no tech trading (ignore spoils of war)
No huts/no events (popping good things)

craft an island. One way, heavy floodplains. Another way, grassland/jungle. Another way, plains with lots of food sources. Another way, a mix. Stone in BFC (if you want pyramids)

Then see what strategy gives the most beakers by 1000BC/0AD/1000AD, how many people used cottages vs. specialists, vs everything.

My guess is the winner will use some of everything.

I understand perfectly that it is gonna be a mix of both because the first few GPs are cheap to get. So maybe a fourth question would be :

When should I stop focusing on producing GPPs? After the 4th or 5th? Or is it worth it to continually produce massive GPPs compared to growing cottages? What would be the best pattern for max beakers researched? (With no tech trades, that is the basis of all my questions)


I assume that, this being the best discussion and knowledge site for Civ4, that one of the very respected master already ran the numbers and found the breaking points and rules of thumbs. All i saw so far is threads filled with "OMG pure SE or pure CE is wrong!!" with no constructive conclusion. You can only say so many times "You have to play the situation" before people realize you're an empty suit.

 

[DaveMcW]

Cottages have a clear advantage over specialists if you don't count GPP.

So build your GP farms, and cottage everything else.

 

[Kiershar]

Cottages have a clear advantage over specialists if you don't count GPP.

So build your GP farms, and cottage everything else.

Ok let me put it this way. You are playing a game with the PLAY NOW settings + No Tech Trades. You are allowed to run your research the way you want.

The questions is : Is there any difference regarding decisions for your GPP production, infrastructure and tile improvements you would make compared to the decisions you would make in tech trades ON game.

(Ex : Would you cut back on farmland in favor of more cottage? Would you still set-up multiple GPPs farms? Would you make the pyramids? Would you still get the cultural tech that are usually for trading?)

What I want to know is just how much the tech trades impact the efficiency of producing Great peoples. I need to know what is the optimal number of great people I need to pull off; how much GPPs infrastructure i should do before switching to other goals. I know how to run specialists efficiently, but i am no expert, i need to be englightened by people with more experience in this area.

 

[DaveMcW]

Is there any difference regarding decisions for your GPP production, infrastructure and tile improvements you would make compared to the decisions you would make in tech trades ON game.

No. The only difference is the decision between bulb/settle/academy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

+1 for what Dave's saying. However, your tech PATH will look a lot different in NTT as suddenly prioritizing lib loses some of its luster.

 

[Kiershar]

No. The only difference is the decision between bulb/settle/academy.

If there are no difference in the way you would do things, It would point to the fact that you have instinctively or mathematically found that the optimal path to maximize the beakers is trough GPs, regardless if tech trades are ON or not...

And this maximized value is greater than all other values from alternate ways of using the land and the production spent.



Do you aim for a particular amount of GPPs/turn and then cottage the rest? What is a reasonable amount of Great People to be produced before 1 AD and before 1000 AD? How much GPPs infrastructure do you allow yourself to build? How do you weight the price of that infrastructure compared to other possibilities? Is there a breaking point or rule of the thumb to decide when another GP farm would be worth it?

Do you have blueprints or an article on how to achieve that? I need more than vague statements; it seems like everything is all instincts and no maths for you guys.

 

[shyuhe]

You're getting vague answers because you're asking for cookie cutter solutions to a very complicated game. If there was a magic formula, most of us would have stopped playing this game a long long time ago. Tech orders and weight of intrastructure can vary greatly depending on your map surroundings - for example whether you're isolated, semi-isolated, or on a pangaea with contact with everyone. So it comes as no surprise that you're not getting a specific answer on what weight to give GPP. Look at dingding's recent game if you want a good discussion on the various weights that people give to early GPP.

 

[Kiershar]

You're getting vague answers because you're asking for cookie cutter solutions to a very complicated game. If there was a magic formula, most of us would have stopped playing this game a long long time ago. Tech orders and weight of intrastructure can vary greatly depending on your map surroundings - for example whether you're isolated, semi-isolated, or on a pangaea with contact with everyone. So it comes as no surprise that you're not getting a specific answer on what weight to give GPP. Look at dingding's recent game if you want a good discussion on the various weights that people give to early GPP.

I disagree, those questions I am asking are very specific.

First thing, isolated or not does not matter; the issue here is that no tech trades are allowed. I understand how you can race techs easily by lightbulbing then trading, what i am asking is how does it scales if the tech trades are off.

Second, The layout of the land does not matter. In the end, all you have to care about is food sources, the hills around those food sources, the fresh water layout and the amount of greenlands. The rest is details. Very few starts are unique enough as to require a totally new strategy.

Third, DaveMcW specifically states that regardless of the settings, he would make a GPP farm and use the GPs to lightbulb. Obviously he has a standard way of setting it up efficiently; its not a random patterns everytimes he plays it.


We all can tell that going 100% cottage or going 100% specialist is not the best way to go. The information i am trying to extract is, how much exactly do you need to invest into GPPs production to get the best returns and why. All of that is scaled against what cottages would give instead; it's not as complicated and intangible as you'd like to believe. Everyone can answer with a one-liner, but so few actually provide the why.

 

[shyuhe]

I disagree, those questions I am asking are very specific.

First thing, isolated or not does not matter; the issue here is that no tech trades are allowed. I understand how you can race techs easily by lightbulbing then trading, what i am asking is how does it scales if the tech trades are off.

Isolated matters because you can completely ignore military techs when you're isolated as you beeline for techs like astronomy to power up your economy first. You get discounts for researching techs that other AI know already, so if you're completely isolated, you can go for an astronomy bulb to make early contact (and intercontinental trade routes) while skipping early techs like masonry, construction etc.

Second, The layout of the land does not matter. In the end, all you have to care about is food sources, the hills around those food sources, the fresh water layout and the amount of greenlands. The rest is details. Very few starts are unique enough as to require a totally new strategy.

Not true at all. GLH can drastically alter your strategy and settling pattern depending on the layout of the land. If you're on an archipelago map, then GLH wins over pretty much everything else, and you'll probably want CoL much earlier than normal which is not a bulbable tech (suggesting better use of settling or academies). If you're in the middle of the map of a pangaea, you'll probably be trying to expand faster to grab land before you get boxed in so techs like math for better chopping are more effective. Alternatively, if you're semi-isolated with one other AI who doesn't have a religion yet, bulbing philosophy for the religion becomes a lot more attractive - even maybe enough to skip an academy first.

Third, DaveMcW specifically states that regardless of the settings, he would make a GPP farm and use the GPs to lightbulb. Obviously he has a standard way of setting it up efficiently; its not a random patterns everytimes he plays it.

The pattern is probably farm the first GP with one of your first two cities, then set up a GP farm with the NE and use that for the rest of your great people.

We all can tell that going 100% cottage or going 100% specialist is not the best way to go. The information i am trying to extract is, how much exactly do you need to invest into GPPs production to get the best returns and why. All of that is scaled against what cottages would give instead; it's not as complicated and intangible as you'd like to believe. Everyone can answer with a one-liner, but so few actually provide the why.

The best returns on GPP are the first few, but the value of their return depends greatly on what you're actually going to bulb for. If you're bulbing for liberalism, then you only need academy + philo + education (2) + maybe liberalism for a total of 5. So you just have to set up your empire to farm 5 GPs, which you can do without a central GP farm. If you're going for say steel from liberalism instead, then you'll need another 2 for chemistry as well while teching through gunpowder and engineering. Since gunpowder and the engineering techs aren't bulbable, you'll need more base research to finish those techs.

 

[Cusanus]

You're getting vague answers

Do I missunderstand the word "vague"?

Because this sounds quite un-vague to me:

"Cottages have a clear advantage over specialists if you don't count GPP.

So build your GP farms, and cottage everything else."