War with Dnuts?

[Chamnix]

In an effort to follow our Constitution, and based on the fact that the turns are flying around, I have started a poll to determine if we should declare war on the Donuts. The Constitution requires a 3/5 majority in favor of war in a poll that lasts for at least 48 hours. In the interest of timeliness, I have started the 48 hour clock running; however, I encourage everyone to wait until the last minute (or at least until we’ve discussed it more) before voting.

The question is really should we declare war on the Donuts ASAP even though it would be a phony war for a while. Our treaty with them forbids attacking units but not the declaration of war. The main point of declaring is to prevent Donuts from spying on us/stealing techs from us.

The ongoing discussion is in the Grand Strategy Meeting Thread starting at around this post.

 

[peter grimes]

Voted, and my thoughts are posted in the Grand Strategy thread.

 

[lost_civantares]

Declaring war would be an even more blatent breaking of the treaty, something that we can not do, not when you refused to do anything for poor TNT because of your honor.

 

[General_W]

But declaring war dosn't break our treaty!!

And as for poor, dear, departed TNT… it'd probably be more accurate to describe our position as "hiding behind our honor"

The reality was, we were not going to start a war before we were ready. (the benefit of waiting till we were ready is self-evident now, I believe)

Our honor was a convenient (though true) excuse for staying out of an early war.

(And, btw, we DID try to help! Thus our reputation as "wigglers")

 

[Chamnix]

I have to disagree with General_W's take on why we didn't help TNT more forcefully. Attacking KISS would have been very effective when all their troops were overseas - probably as effective as waiting until we were "ready". We had no idea it would be as easy as it was after TNT was gone. Without honor, I think we certainly would have switched to military earlier and gone after KISS while TNT was still alive. Why not? We really didn't attack KISS because of honor as opposed to preparedness.

We didn't attack Dnuts because we weren't ready. We didn't have any deal with them at the time, so we couldn't claim that was about honor. That was a case of "we could attack, but we don't want to." I think our honor was more than an excuse to hide behind.

 

[peter grimes]

He's got you there, G_W

 

[General_W]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen!

I think you're both engaged in a bit of revisionist history here!
But the truth is, I'm sure we all had slightly different reasons for what we did.

And anyway – my comments were in regard to the Dnuts – as Chamnix mentioned, we COULD have attacked them.

As I remember it, we continually worded things in such a way as to be vague about who our honor prevented us from attacking… as we were seeking to avoid military conflict in general.

Anyway – that's the past.

As for what to do now – I think it depends on how much cash the nuts have – and what % they have their gold set to, so we can make a guess about how much they'll have next turn. If we investigate and find they could have 900+ gold on the next turn, then we need to "close the embassy" – if they're poor and set to high science… then we can wait.

EDIT: I think the tipping point is 900 gold - cost to immediatly steal Industrialism as per Chamnix in the Grand Strategy Thread.

 

[Chamnix]

Playing now... Dnuts have 87 gold but are running 100% tax. Screenie will be posted in SotE. I guess we agree not to declare on this turn since I don't think they could be making 813 gpt (at least I hope not!).

Edit - and costs for us to steal from Dnuts (which should be almost identical to their costs to steal from us) are 948, 1422, and 1896.

 

[General_W]

ok - good to know... but it's clear they are planning on stealing from us.

Also - makes me suspect that they stole Industrialsm... otherwise, why establish the embassy this turn? Why not wait till you had money to establish AND steal?

But again - no way to know for sure.
Still - at 100% tax, Dnuts could be looking to get some extra gold from KISS. I suppose we're safe waiting a turn... but if it matters, I'd still close the embassy this turn.

100% tax rate is as good as a declaration of an intent to steal our tech in my book.

 

[Chamnix]

Yes, their 0% science does make their intentions clear. As far as why they established this turn, it could be because KISS wanted them to peak at Eureka Stockade now instead of later. I did not declare war.

 

[General_W]

ok - I'm cool with that!

Nice work on a short timeline Mr. President.
Hope I didn't give you too much heartburn

 

[fe3333au]

I'm leaning towards letting them have the embassy until we see the danger ... and have voted accoprdingly.

Gentlemen let us not act hastely ... yes there is a risk but as chamnix pointed out it has a fairly good failure rate ... worth the risk IMO. Remember too that we get to pick when to close the door!!! ... and the technology stolen is random isn't it

This is a perfect opportunity for us to get some real intelegence about our greatest rival.

Every turn we should peak at another cheap city ... that way we can see just how powerfull their economy is.

It will also let us peak into the black of the terrain overlooking some of the cities that we can just barely see .... Robi's Bakery, Maple Frosted, Jam Filled, Glazed Gingerbread, Niagrara Falls, Neodakheat etc ... maybe even Strawberry, the wonder city (but that would be more expensive)

We potentially end up with a more accurate map of target cities and also the defences in place ... if it does come to an invasion.

 

[Chamnix]

The technology stolen is not random - they can choose what they get.

The looking at defenses is not relevant - the units can be somewhere else very easily by the time we are ready to attack since they have rails.

 

[fe3333au]

Not units ... I'm interested in the infrastructure in the towns.

 

[classical_hero]

We need to make plans first before we declare on them. I would not go to war right now, but wait till then end of the treaty and then declare. I would basically vote for a preparation for war, not war right now. War is the ultimate goal, butwe must get things right first, and that would be having RP and thus making life near imposible for them to take us on. But this has been m strategy for a long time now.

 

[peter grimes]

To be sure, I'm not advocating attacking them any time soon. I'm just saying that we should slam shut the door they just opened on us. The intel we may gain isn't worth the risk of DNUTs stealing Industrialization.

Let's declare immediately, and then attack them later on, when we're ready (flight?)

 

[classical_hero]

But wouldn't waiting that long give them enough time to build up a defence? If we are going to declare, I would go for RP and us that great advantage we would have with it.

BTW with some of the reasoning, I am starting to lean towards declaring right now.

 

[General_W]

I'm becoming very convinced that we must "close the embassy" (declare war) next turn. If they little turds want to steal from us (and it's very obvious that they do) then I want them to have to research espionage first by themselves.
Since Espionage requires Industrialism, it's very important that we NOT let them steal Indust from us.
With their economy at 100% and an unknown amount of money potentially coming from KISS (also assumed to be running 100% economy) then we're playing Russian Roulette the longer we wait.

A note can easily be sent explaining that we are NOT (as a point of fact) violating our treaty. We can just say: "Look – we're closing your embassy. You may interpret this as an act of war, but we're not attacking any towns or invading your territory. If you want to behave like we're at war – that's up to you. But we consider our selves to still be following our treaty with you. See section 1.1"

Anyway – that's my take.
I'll be voting for "an embassy closing" (war) unless I got some powerful argument against it in the next several hours.

 

[lost_civantares]

I guess I can agree to that with a note like that.

What would the effects of war be on the happyness of the populice though? Or would it take an actual war with fighting to anger our people?

 

[fe3333au]

Well if we do close it will be prudent to spy on another cheap city (I'll decide which will give us the most map info) before we declare.