WARFARE - which unit to use?

[dodgy_007au]

I need some "pointers" on combat strategy:

The most annoying problem i have found with Civ4 is combat.
i have a basic understanding of the bonuses the some units have over others, but i always seem to run into a dillema:

1) If i use Archers to attack a city, then the AI picks a unit with a defensive bonus over archery units
2) so i try horsemen instead, ang get smashed by units with a defensive bonus over mounted units
3)later 1 tried swordsman and found them once again beaten by the seemingly all-knowing AI
4) then along came my grenadiers...only to be once again, smashed by the AI who always seems to have a unit with a bonus over mine...

in one game i lost what i thought was a sizeable force of 2-3 cavalry, 2-3 grenadiers and some longbowmen, against a couple of longbowmen and some riflemen.

what IS the best unit to use while attack against

Axeman
Spearman
Maceman
Longbowman
Pikeman
Rifleman

thanks,

 

[bonscott]

Couple things. The best unit able to defend will always defend. So if you attack with a horse unit the defender will automatically be the unit with the best odds to win, typically an undamaged spear/pike.

You shouldn't really attack with archers unless you have a huge 2-1 or 3-1 number advantage. They are city defense specialists. They would only be good at attacking warriors really.

Sounds like you aren't using seige units. You should always bring along several cats/cannon/arties with your attack force and do some collateral damage first. Attacking a city basically requires the use of seige units.

Best units to attack with against, assuming same era here and not in cities for the most part, and of course the same unit with better upgrades will do just fine:
Axeman - Swords with combat and melee upgrades. Horse Archers will eat them up as will crossbows, especially with upgrades.
Spearman - would get ate up by Axemen and Swords
Maceman - Knights
Longbowman - In the open field they are pretty vulnerable to Macemen, knights and even horse archers but behind city walls or fortified on a hill or something, better bring vastly suprior numbers and/or seige untis.
Pikeman - Axes can work with upgrades, Macemen of course.
Rifleman - Grenaders do wonders here. Cavs should do ok, especially if you knocked the rifles down a notch with seige units. It will be a long haul and if you face a lot of rifles, beeline to Infantry which will eat them for lunch.

 

[garner_adam]

Well generally speaking against large stacks be sure to use catapults. They'll almost certaintly die but you can weaken many units in the stack in order to improve your odds for success. Speaking of which...

Put units of different types in to the same group and then attack. The AI will choose the best unit for the job.

You can also determine the odds of the battle by using the "Go To" command (G) and holding your cursor over the enemy.

Axemen are good against melee so generally speaking just hit 'em with any thing that has a higher attack value that isn't melee. (Horse Archers are 6 mounted)

Spearmen are great against mounted but get eaten alive by axemen and just about any thing else.

Macemen these are just bigger badder axemen

Longbowman and Archer units will consistently provide problems while they're on the defensive. But high attack value units do a good job and if they're in a city you'll want to soften 'em up with a catapult.

Pikeman just a bigger badder spearman

Rifleman are weak against Grendendiers so take advantage of the +50% bonus against gunpowder.

 

[Ozyman8]

Scout the enemy before attacking... never bring a sword to a gunfight.

Swordsmen are an obvious choice for city attacks, but you often need to complement those with spearmen, axemen, catapults, or archers. Which units to bring strongly depends on what the enemy has.

Axeman vs Axeman
Spearman vs Axeman
Maceman vs Crossbowman
Longbowman vs Maceman
Pikeman vs Maceman
Rifleman vs Grenadier

 

[CivCorpse]

Rifleman are weak against Grendendiers so take advantage of the +50% bonus against gunpowder.

I have a stack of redcoats that begs to disagree. comparing them fresh from the box. Genadier 12 Str plus 50% vs rifleman = 18 str....Redcoat 16 str plus 25% vs gunpowder =20str.

 

[mboza]

Ahem, obviously redcoats are not normal riflemen, and grenadiers are still better attacking redcoats than riflemen, cavalry etc to attack.


For attacking in general, I find mixed stacks are slightly counter productive because the best defender defends.

eg. I attack a city with macemen, knights and catapults. City is defended with 2-3 longbowmen and 1-2 pikeman. Over a couple of turns, catapults reduce the culture defence to near zero. My macemen then throw themselves against the longbows, and then when it is the knights turn to attack, they die on the pikes. Attacking in any sequence has the same problem, unless I have enough units to only use one type in the attack, at which point the combined arms approach becomes unnecessary. Or unless the defender has so few units to choose from that the same one is defending regardless. Later you can see grenadiers with pinch attacking cities defended by riflemen/musketmen and longbows, and the longbows are picked to defend.

So attacking a mixed stack is always more expensive than attacking the same number of uints on different squares.

For attacking cities, use catapults to reduce the culture defence to near zero. Then use swordsmen/macemen/grenadiers against archers/longbowmen/musketmen/riflemen which are the usual defence. If there are no spearmen/pikemen, then knights and horse archers will also work, but neither get the crucial city raider bonuses. If your attack strength is still lower than the defenders, attack with the catapults (or other sacrificial units) to soften the defence up in a battle of attrition. But the defenders heal much faster than you do, so try to get as many attacks into a single turn as possible.

But most important, attack cities with units that have city raider promotions. City raider will usually trump equivalent tech units with city defence. And you can upgrade your swordsmen to macemen->grenadiers->infantry, so you have an elite assault force. The AI sometimes upgrades units with city raider to machine guns, which is a great waste.

 

[DangerousMonkey]

There are an incredibly huge ammount of possible "what beats what" combos, the best way to answer your question would be to check the "Strategy Articles" forum and read "Combat Explained" for a rundown of how combat works and how to get an idea of the odds involved.

Also, a good trick to find out how a unit will fare against another unit is to select your attacking unit, then hold down the "Alt" key, and hold your mouse over the unit you plan to attack. In the bottom left-hand corner of the screen the combat odds will be displayed. If the ratio is about equal, then there is about an even chance either way, though a small advantage on either side does translate to a signifigant extra chance of winning. If the ratio is greater than 1.5-1.8 then you have very little chance of winning. More than 1.8 and you shouldn't even bother unless you have insanely superiour numbers.

Also, remember to bring siege units.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Use the alt-hover over the enemy stack and see for yourself which unit get what odds. You might have a spearman (love that unit) that would rip their horse archer to shreds but can't because of the axeman there.

You swordsman is underdog to the axeman because of the terrain. You can perform that attack but don't want to use the unit in the open.

You just happen to have a low exp chariot ready and want those bad odds. One, it might withdraw. It might get lucky, but don't count on it. You damage the axeman enough to make the horsearcher prime defender. Reselect your spearman and have horsemeat, and mop up the axeman now with the swords for a small bump.

If you stack attack it will not go down that way.

as an example of course. (insert standard disclaimer here)

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

This article may help...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3294046#post3294046

 

[dodgy_007au]

Thanks everyone!

 

[ToFro]

You were advised to use siege units in your attacks, for collateral damage. This is great advice, just don't forget to bombard the city defense bonus to zero before you "suicide-attack" with them.

 

[spiceant]

axeman are great because they come early and with a very usefull worker ability and civic (chop&slavery) which u can use to chop/whip more axes in captured citys, with the captured population or the trees that you managed to get your hands on.
this is pretty much how i start out on emperor, after the land grab is over.

 

[mpogr]

A trick I’m extensively using during my current game (Incas, huge continents, Immortal) is creating a "City Raider super-specialist" unit.

It started as a quecha, giving it a hefty jumpstart against barbarian archers.
Having “Combat I” for granted (from the aggressive trait), went for "City Raider I, II and III" in row, only from animals and barbs (10 XP). This was already enough to take enemy capitals in early game, with no siege support.

Example:

• My quecha:
  2 + 10% = 2.2
• Enemy archer with "City Garrison I and II" and 20% cultural bonus:
  3 + 50% (archer’s bonus for city defense) + 20% (City Garrison I) + 25%(City Garrison II) + 20% (culture bonus) – 100% (quecha’s bonus against archers) – 20%(City Raider I) – 25%(City Raider II) – 30%(City Raider III) = 1.88

Continued promoting, grabbing "Cover" (additional 25% against archery units), and then from "Combat II" to "Combat V", adding 40% more to the basic unit strength, along with ability to heal additional 20% in neutral and 10% in enemy land, and, finally "Shock" (25% against melee units).
This was the end of quecha’s promotions as I had to upgrade it to maceman to deal with longbows my enemies had by that time.

Now, it’s riflemen/grenadiers/cavalry era, and this unit is kicking some big asses again, this time as a rifleman.

Examples vs. typical defenders:

• My rifleman:
  14 + 50% = 21
• Enemy longbow with "City Garrison I, II and III" and 80% cultural defense:
  6 + 25% (longbow’s bonus for city defense) + 20% (City Garrison I) + 25%(City Garrison II) + 30%(City Garrison III) + 80% (Culture Bonus) - 20%(City Raider I) – 25%(City Raider II) – 30%(City Raider III) – 25%(Cover) = 10.8
  Slaughter, no need to wait for siege.
• Enemy grenadier with "City Garrison I, II" and 80% cultural:
  12 + 20% (City Garrison I) + 25%(City Garrison II) + 80% (Culture Bonus) - 20%(City Raider I) – 25%(City Raider II) – 30%(City Raider III) = 18
  This is riskier, I usually lower the city cultural defense to ~40% (13.2 strength for grenadier), then take the deal.
• Enemy rifleman with "City Garrison I, II" and 80% cultural:
  14 + 20% (City Garrison I) + 25%(City Garrison II) + 80% (Culture Bonus) - 20%(City Raider I) – 25%(City Raider II) – 30%(City Raider III) = 21
  Here I siege to the bottom (10.8 strength for the enemy rifleman), then eat them for cake. Still no suicide cannon, though!

The only downside is that I’m no longer able to promote this unit as it needs 85 XP to get the next promotion, and I’ll probably upgrade it to infantry before this happens (it’s at 28 XP right now).
But I won’t complain to have it just as is as a mechanized infantry (50% to base strength, 75% off city defense is a nice set of features for any era ).

Just remember to defend this unit from counterattacks (e.g., have cavalry in the stack to repel attacking grenadiers etc.).

 

[kamigawan]

Agree with spiceant for sure. Axemen are the best non-unique unit on monarch or easier before about 500AD. They are available very early, can deal with nearly any barbarian attacks, are cheap, and most notably, no unit has a combat advantage against them until crossbows (or war elephants, if your opp has ivory) so its not especially necessary to worry about combined arms. Yes, horse archers have one more str, but they have higher tech requirements, need horse, do not receive defensive bonuses and are more expensive. I usually pick shock as my first promotion to deal with enemy axemen/swordsmen/spearmen, combined with city raider, and occasionally cover or medic.