Warlord 100K Large 4th Place Babylon

Ruin

Warlord
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
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208
Location
Mississippi
1380 finish. And I know this is a fairly mediocre accomplishment, but yes, there were more than 3 other players on the table.

60% pangeaea. I think normal (don't want too much swamp/jungle), normal (play arid when I'm ag), 5 billion, no barbs. Usually I'm the Celts, and it would have been a better choice for the gallic movement, and the fact that while I saved on gold on Libraries, since I had the ToA, I never built any Unis. Lots of grassland, a cow, and seemed to have more room than the 6 AI, (no Alphabets, no Ags, no Scis) who mostly wound up in jungles. Built Pyramids, ToA, Colossus, and many other wonders, some of which actually came in handy keeping folks happy like Sistine and Bach. The downsides were I had one lux, no iron, and no horses, so conquest took forever. Bowmen walking forever. Then some of them became Longbowmen and kept walking. Finally even though I had plenty of room to still expand, I took Horses from the Americans and Iron from the Arabs, and had knights. Didn't have saltpeter even though I controlled most of the world by this point. Finally got it and eliminated Americans, Arabs, and Japaneses and by then I had like 60% of the land. Had no need to continue to war, but it was fun, and I had already built the cultural buildings in my core so they kept spurting out cavs, accompanied by the occasional crusader trudging along. I switched to Feudalism before I had finished mopping up, maybe should have done it even sooner. I ended with 230 cities and probably 200+ colluseums. Whip whip whip. A few turns before the end, I eliminated the Zulu, then the Chinese a few turns after that. Left the Mongols on a peninsula. They did manage to learn Education, but still lacked Metallurgy. (They had the Great Library which I destroyed). Here's a few pictures:

Screenshot (38).png
This plucky bowman walked down that jungle peninsula to scout out the other "continent" before the war. Then he hid on a mountain but nobody bothered him so he started pillaging the roads. He defeated a few warriors and then got chased by med inf from all three of my adversaries (Zulu, China, Mongolia). He won approximately a dozen battles without healing, some with jungle defense bonus but with only 1 hp vs full strength MI. He eventually made it back behind our lines and hid behind cavalry to heal. I don't think he ever did spawn a leader tho. I had 36 captured workers, mostly Zulus build a road down to that town with the dyes, which is the only one I kept (for my 8th lux).
Screenshot 2024-01-27 215543.png
Some of my ICS in former America. The mines on the left are where I decided the "core" ended. Because it took so long to walk to the frontier, my settlers often found it easier to just nestle themselves between my existing towns. Hence, I still hadn't finished ICSing America when the game ended, and had just begun to ICS Arabia, let alone Japan where some towns didn't get connected to my roads until the last turn.
Screenshot 2024-01-28 020052.png
Yay, I am a winner! This is a part of the map that America never even bothered to settle.

Now back to COTM, trying to beat @SuedecivIII speed run record (I'm getting close as you can see), and eventually finishing my Celts story.
 
Nicely done! Republic prior to Feudalism? My 100K game was one of the few times I went with Feudalism in Civ III.

With no iron and no horses, I don't think the Celts would have been of much help. Gallic Swordsmen still require Iron, right? I believe the only resource-free fast Ancient Age unit is the Jaguar Warrior? Which probably wouldn't have been optimal on a Large map either, great at first but probably wouldn't be able to reach everyone while it was still effective.

In a way though, the lack of Iron/Horses makes the 1380 date more impressive.
 
Nicely done! [...] the lack of Iron/Horses makes the 1380 date more impressive.
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words from a Civ3 megalith such as yourself. I used the strategies from https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cultural-victory-20k-vs-100k.650996/ to guide me. Thanks to @CKS and @tjs282 (who also had some very helpful comments in succession game threads).

Republic prior to Feudalism? My 100K game was one of the few times I went with Feudalism in Civ III.
Yes, I did a republic slingshot in very nice time (for me). I had tried a few practice games where I stayed in republic to get rails and rep parts but it wasn't worth it. But in this game it might have been. There's at least one top 100k game that ran monarchy the whole time! I may calculate how many virtual citizens I slaughtered with my cruel oppression. Who knew that the most aggressive of city-razers pale in comparison to cultural builders when it comes to brutality?
With no iron and no horses, I don't think the Celts would have been of much help. Gallic Swordsmen still require Iron, right?
Uh yes, even in 2024 they do still require iron :hammer2:OP was @ 2:30 AM after playing for about 8 hours straight trying to wrap things up.
 
Haha, yeah, a few of my recent posts in this forum were also late at night after long Civ sessions, and I make no guarantees that they are mistake-free. Good idea to learn from the past experiences of others... you finished almost 400 years before my 100K game as a result.

Yes, I did a republic slingshot in very nice time (for me). I had tried a few practice games where I stayed in republic to get rails and rep parts but it wasn't worth it. But in this game it might have been. There's at least one top 100k game that ran monarchy the whole time! I may calculate how many virtual citizens I slaughtered with my cruel oppression. Who knew that the most aggressive of city-razers pale in comparison to cultural builders when it comes to brutality?
:lol: I was wondering after my message last night, it sounds like you did eventually research Education and Music Theory in this one? My understanding is conventional 100K wisdom would be to never research Education (to keep the Temple of Artemis), but a rich enough Republic could in theory build enough Temples and Universities to offset that (which makes me wonder... do Temple of Artemis temples receive double culture after 1000 years?). Maybe a Scientific Feudalism could make that work too, via rushing.

That "100K monarchy" bit of info makes me wish we had more easily sortable info about some of the top 100K games, i.e. easier than downloading and loading each one locally. The most exotic government I've ended one of my HOF games in was Anarchy, which I switched into intentionally in my Histographic game to avoid winning via 100K.

One more question, am I reading it right that you were at -255 gold per turn at 100% treasury, with only a few turns left in the war chest, at the end of this game? Too few productive towns and too many Colosseums? Too many units despite the 5/3/1 free unit support? Or way too much gold going to other civs? I don't think I've ever seen that large of a deficit at 100% treasury.
 
it sounds like you did eventually research Education and Music Theory in this one
Another late night error. I didn't get Education, thus no Music Theory, and no Bach's. I did build Hanging Gardens.
do Temple of Artemis temples receive double culture after 1000 years
The magic temples definitely do not. As for the ones built by hand before ToA - that's an interesting question because of something that was bothering me during the game. I had read somewhere that they did double. Here is Babylon in 1000 AD (ToA built 50 BC).
Screenshot 2024-01-29 160337.png
So according to the city screen, it's getting 4 music notes from the temple. But in CA2:
Screenshot 2024-01-29 160302.png
No 2x in the Bonus column! However this is apparently just a CA2 bug. I went back and checked saves around the time ToA was built and even though the "2x" vanishes, I'm still getting 4 culture per turn for the temple subsequently. Just to be sure, I checked a city whose temple was built pre-ToA but wasn't old enough to double yet, and it did still start to double after the 1000 years. TLDR: Temple of Artemis temples don't double culture after 1000 year, but regular ones built prior to ToA do - though CivAssist II doesn't show this.
am I reading it right that you were at -255 gold per turn at 100% treasury, with only a few turns left in the war chest, at the end of this game? Too few productive towns and too many Colosseums? Too many units despite the 5/3/1 free unit support? Or way too much gold going to other civs? I don't think I've ever seen that large of a deficit at 100% treasury.
Haha, it wasn't unit support as I had 325 units at the end game and 1030 allowed. Also I don't think I sent a single GPT to other civs in the entire game. They had no techs and couldn't trade me resources because the map was so big the roads didn't touch. (I did capture two Japanese towns with harbors but by then I had all their stuff.) What was going on was I set my core cities to build Cavs, the 2-6 SPT towns to build Settlers, and all the others built workers once they were done with their culture. The worker cities got their population readjusted during the build cycle after specialists reset. I tried to keep them at 0-1 FPT and made the excess citizens taxmen (and make sure they weren't hogging food-rich tiles from their still culturally-developing neighbors). 240 cities at end game that each built a worker every 10 turns meant I have to reset 24 per turn. By doing this I basically broke even - I remember having ~1400 gold for centuries. At the end I got bored of it and this is the result of hitting enter for a few turns. TLDR: 1047 GPT for Colosseum maintenance someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my family is dying
 
Great investigation there on the temples and their culture! Certainly interesting that the pre-builts still double (as I'd hope!), but the Artemis-built ones don't. Makes me wonder if there's an inflection point where it's actually better to not build the Temple of Artemis. All those temples that Artemis gave between 50 BC and 380 AD could have generated more culture if they were built by hand/rushed, with the doubling potentially outweighing their later construction date.

I doubt it would work out favorably to skip Artemis on purpose just because of that - you'd have to be a very wealthy civ to rush the temples quickly enough - but combined with Universities... maybe? One of the factors in why this is an interesting competition, all the nuance to the strategic options.

Also interesting that even though CAII doesn't show the 2x bonus, its culture-per-turn total matches the in-game total.

240 towns is a lot to manage! That's probably why I did my 100K game on Standard instead of Large. Although that would only be 480 Colosseum maintenance... still a ton, but 1047 must be overall building maintenance? I'm not sure how to fix that with Feudalism and such small cities... Marketplaces might help, or they might not without Smith's.
 
All those temples that Artemis gave between 50 BC and 380 AD could have generated more culture if they were built by hand/rushed, with the doubling potentially outweighing their later construction date.
I stopped building Temples once I started building Artemis. In 380 AD I had 41 cities (i call em cities as a catchall unless i'm specifically referring to only small towns or metros). 14 had handbuilt temples, and 5 or so were new enough that they wouldn't have had one built by hand. So say 20 extra handbuilt temples between 370 BC (turn 109 - last temple built in 390 BC) and 380 AD (turn 153). End turn was 266. The 370 BC temple becomes 1000 yrs old in 630 AD (turn 178). So this temple missed out on 266-178 or 88 turns of doubling or 176 culture points. A temple with only 1 turn of doubling is obviously only worth 2 extra culture. If the 20 missed temples were built at roughly staggered times, say giving 176 + 167 + 158 + ... + 23 + 14 + 5 culture (i know it can't be odd numbers it's just an estimate) it comes out to ~1800 culture. But since I was making 2343 culture a turn at the end, and finished with 130,276, it would have saved at most one turn if my estimates were low. (I didn't do these calculations til now, but that's interesting)
I doubt it would work out favorably to skip Artemis on purpose just because of that - you'd have to be a very wealthy civ to rush the temples quickly enough - but combined with Universities... maybe?
Not because of that, though temples are easy to whip, and with the Babs, I bet I could whip a lot of Unis too. I guess I'll have to try it and see. The food bonus from railed irrigation could make the difference.
240 towns is a lot to manage! That's probably why I did my 100K game on Standard instead of Large. Although that would only be 480 Colosseum maintenance... still a ton, but 1047 must be overall building maintenance? I'm not sure how to fix that with Feudalism and such small cities... Marketplaces might help
Yeah the 1047 was overall, the part about colliseum maintenance with a joke. Hmm another good thing about TOA is it saved me 230 gpt. Also, to correct my error, I had 230 cities total, 12 were building cathedrals, 15 cavalry, 14 colosseums (1 was a market for a short rush), 2 harbors, 8 libraries and 22 settlers. All the rest (157) were workers. So only had to micro 15 a turn. Less because if they were pop 1-3 I just let them grow. Did whip a few markets in large and whiny cities not caring - pleased even - that it took 5 pop to do so.
 
Nice analysis on the temple doubling benefit. Funny how 1800 culture both sounds like a lot and amount to perhaps one turn in the end. I was realizing similar things in my 20K attempts - even things that seem like they should be significant don't necessarily move the needle a lot if they don't arrive early enough.

There are a lot of variables in what might or might not help. Whipped universities might help, or they might hurt, if settlers + whipped temples would be a better use of the population. Maybe the extra food from rails would help? I am a bit curious if you ever ran into issues due to citizens not forgetting your cruel oppression and refusing to work.

And good point about the ToA saving 230 GPT! That was quite significant with all that maintenance, Colosseum and otherwise! Babylon might have legitimately gone bankrupt otherwise.
 
I am a bit curious if you ever ran into issues due to citizens not forgetting your cruel oppression and refusing to work.
No, because they were dead. Srs though by the time a 1 pop town with temple, cathedral+sistines, colosseum & hanging garden is big enough to be unhappy again, they've forgotten all about it. The three or so times it happened to floodplain cities and I had to massacre a market for them was because I was lax with the taxmen.
 
Your picture looks like it came from use of the Flintlock mod. I'm not objecting, but it does make me curious about which version you used.
The latest available with just bug fixes and convenience features. The arty mod feature makes it harder/better but I only enable it for fun games, as it could conceivably be used for farming.
 
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