Warmongering - which ability?

[Czacki]

I'm pretty much a die-hard fan of industrious: Wonders like Stonehenge, Pyramids and Temple of Artemis are too good to let AI or another player get them.

The second spec however is a problem.

Most people love financial, but I don't. Doesn't help me much with war, and I like to grow a big empire and eat all the neighbors alive.

I'm torn between...

Imperialistic - since my main idea is to make a military production city with heroic epic, west point and a lot of workshops to pump highly experienced units each turn, more great generals is good. Barracks+Vassalage+Theocracy+West Point (also Pentagon if possible) means +11 exp, +13 with pentagon, which is already near the 5th level. Two more generals and there you have it, and since I use first GG to make a supermedic and the second to make a super-retreat unit (which ends up a C6 gunship with blitz and 80% withdraw chance in late game -> city buster), the sooner I get more, the better. I also get super medic earlier.

however...

Charismatic Seems to be a strong contender. First of all, the level 5 promotion already IS at 13 exp, meaning I don't need GG at all to make level 5 units with a city described above; also, the super-medic and super-unit can grab more promotions earlier, which may mean WM3 for super medic and faster C6 for the cavalry/gunship unit. Since I build Stonehenge each game, I have a free monument at every city, and that for charistmatic leaders, paired with the natural bonus, is +2 free happiness. Which is nearly like starting with Representation already taken for the purpose of expanding. Also, before I get a super-production city, it's easier to get CR3 swords with charismatic, definitely.

There is also one option more...

Aggressive - Underlooked, but it is necessary like having +1 level of an unit. meaning, I only need 10 exp in cities to produce level 5 unit equivalents -which means that it is the most "natural" option of getting level 5 units (well, false level 5s, but C1 is a prerequisite for almost everything else so one promotion would end up being C1 anyway...)

It also means easier super-medic, like in charismatic: one promotion less to get both WM3 and M3. Saves a lot of time and nerves...

It's also and indirect buff to super units: again, C6 will be easier to get, albeit not as easy as in charismatic (~92 exp needed when charismatic to get Withdraw2, Tactics, Blitz, Combat 6; ~100 with Aggressive; ~120 with neither of those).


Also, while Imperalistic means a faster GG, and subsequently super-medic, both aggressive and charismatic mean it's easier to get WM3 and medic1 without GG, which is actually the same potency without "wasting" a GG.


Your thoughts? Which of those suits the "pump highly-promoted units from your heroic epic city" strategy best?

Or perhaps I should just make more production cities and forget GGs entirely, going for quantity over quality... still, i'd take a CR3 maceman over four unupgraded macemen any time of day.

Cheers

 

[*Svart*]

imperialistic are not so great imho... i prefer charismatic. BTW industrious it's not so good for warmongering and neither early wonders. If you like to warmonger, why don't take wonders from your enemies instead of build'em up by yourself? I'd say charismatic is solid, try char+aggr.... Boudica

 

[dra]

Most people love financial, but I don't. Doesn't help me much with war, and I like to grow a big empire and eat all the neighbors alive.

But it is beautifull for war. First of all it gives you additional commerce which in return allow you to maintain those several axes more. Having few axes and not may be the difference between success and failure.

What's more, if you conquer enemy's land, you will also control his improvements. Two riverside cottages captured can pay off maintanance for a city so you don't have to raze it to keep up. I find financial very usefull in early stages due to lack of commerce options. In end game, when you have full grown towns 1 extra gold doesnt change a squat. Replacing 2 commerce with 3 commerce instantly however (riverside cottage) is a huge boost.

I know it's not pure warmongering trait but it gives good early oportunities to keep up while fighting. As long as you have a proper production city for military.

 

[*Svart*]

yes... financial is ALWAYS good

 

[Czacki]

I don't use axes if I don't have to; I attack with withdrawal horse archers and swordsmen with City raider.

I don't have problems with money as long as I get, say, a great prophet, or if I don't, I rush currency and make my production city build wealth = 100% science no prob. Personally I always found financial too marginal to be worth my time, but maybe I just don't understand the potential.

Industrious is a must since my friend also wants pyramids and stonehenge - without it I can be beaten in such a race, and those two wonders are the key behind successful rapid expanding without falling behind in everyone in technology.

I'm more inclined to use charismatic atm... too bad it means I have to play france with useless UU and UB for warmongering Unrestricted leaders feels like cheating

 

[*Svart*]

let your friend build pyramid and stonenge. Beeline for horacle. Take the other wonders from your friends.... you are the wormonger, don't build, capture!

 

[jeffah3539]

Organized is very underrated for warmongering. If combined with the Pyramids, it allows you to run Police State for the +25% unit production and lowered war weariness because it cuts your civic costs in half. It also allows you to build cheap courthouses which will lower your city upkeep from conquering a huge empire early on. That allows you to recover your economy quickly from the early rush.

 

[Sidney Magal]

Industrious is a must since my friend also wants pyramids and stonehenge - without it I can be beaten in such a race, and those two wonders are the key behind successful rapid expanding without falling behind in everyone in technology.

Industrious gives you 50% production of wonders, stone gives you 100%. If your friend gets stone and you don't, you'll lose the wonders.

 

[BobDole]

I'd say charismatic would be my second pick...but personally if I'm warmongering I'm not worrying about Industrious for wonderspamming. Yeah, wonders are nice, and there's some that are definitely worth going for, but they're expensive and if you're looking to kill everyone, it can be distracting and a waste of production. I'd rather just play with a wonderspammer like Pacal or Hyuna Capac and just invade them for all their crap.

And of course, financial is always a good choice, although at the same time you don't want to become dependent on it so if you're not using it, that might be a good thing.

 

[Absolute Zero]

I'm pretty much a die-hard fan of industrious: Wonders like Stonehenge, Pyramids and Temple of Artemis are too good to let AI or another player get them.

Industrious is a must since my friend also wants pyramids and stonehenge - without it I can be beaten in such a race, and those two wonders are the key behind successful rapid expanding without falling behind in everyone in technology.

1. You can still get wonders without Industrious.
2. You don't need those wonders. Yes, they help, but they are not absolutely necessary. I really don't see how you can't expand and keep up in tech without Stonehenge or the Pyramids.

Most people love financial, but I don't. Doesn't help me much with war, and I like to grow a big empire and eat all the neighbors alive.

It doesn't help directly, but it certainly helps indirectly. Financial = more commerce = faster research = better units. It can help you reach a tech lead, which will make your warring much easier: rifles vs. longbows, infantry vs. rifles, etc.

And if you really want Industrious, then Huayna Capac (Industrious/Financial) is a powerful leader. The Quechua UU can get you a quick second capital (best-case scenario), but if not, they're still solid barb defense. The Terrace means you don't need Stonehenge.

Charismatic Seems to be a strong contender. First of all, the level 5 promotion already IS at 13 exp, meaning I don't need GG at all to make level 5 units with a city described above; also, the super-medic and super-unit can grab more promotions earlier, which may mean WM3 for super medic and faster C6 for the cavalry/gunship unit. Since I build Stonehenge each game, I have a free monument at every city, and that for charistmatic leaders, paired with the natural bonus, is +2 free happiness. Which is nearly like starting with Representation already taken for the purpose of expanding. Also, before I get a super-production city, it's easier to get CR3 swords with charismatic, definitely.

I think Charismatic is the best warmongering trait, better than Imperialistic and Aggressive. It pays off in the long run, and also helps in peacetime with the extra happiness.

still, i'd take a CR3 maceman over four unupgraded macemen any time of day.

Why is this? Against a longbow, the CR3 maceman still has a big chance of losing, while with four unpromoted maces, you can sacrifice one or two and win with the ones left over.

I don't have problems with money as long as I get, say, a great prophet, or if I don't, I rush currency and make my production city build wealth = 100% science no prob.

You don't need 100% science all the time. The important thing is the beakers per turn, not the percentage. 100 beakers at 50% is better than 50 beakers at 100%.

Personally I always found financial too marginal to be worth my time, but maybe I just don't understand the potential.

At first glance, it seems to be so, but the +1 commerce adds up over time and can potentially result in a huge boost.

 

[Czacki]

The reasoning behind this is because I don't like to be a one-trick pony Going all for war is sort of limiting. With pyramids and stonehenge, I can delay invasion, since I'm not in dire need to conquer something NOW or fall back behind everyone due to inferior tech and economy. I can wait - pure war leaders afaik can't (not sure of this ofc.)

As for the stone: I usually rush pyramids, so by the time he finishes his quarry, roads and second city, I'm already near their completion. The only cases is when he has stone on his 1st city's territory, but that happens once per like, 50 games or so. We've played around 200 games so far and I recall him having stone maybe 10 times, out of which he had it twice or so near his capitol. In other words: happens too rare to be bothered with.

If I took organized, I'd either lose a big chance to snatch pyramids and stonehenge, or a boost to my military, so I'd rather pass on that one - never had serious financial problems in civ4 when going for all-hammers city building wealth as soon as it can.

 

[mechaerik]

Industrious is on the whole "meh", especially if you're a warmonger. I prefer taking wonders rather than building them. One of my favorite traits is Creative. With CRE, you won't need stonehenge. Borders pop faster, allowing me to expand faster. For this reason, I like Catherine.

Best warmonger trait is probably CHA. You get happiness, your troops get more powerful quicker, and it applies to all units, not just melee and mounted.

Financial is another excellent, all-round trait.

 

[Czacki]

here's my reasoning:

I need stonehenge. Why? Because without CRE it takes like FOREVER to get a city to get the terrain around it. If a city is placed optimally (snatches as much resources as it can), some of them cannot be harvested until first culture pop. Which really, badly slows you down. If the AI (or your friend) is near, you may lose invaluable terrain or resources because someone settles and pops the border faster then you.

I also need pyramids. Why? cause I need the science while going for as much land as I can. Library spam and +3 beakers per specialist is fun when I get a ton of them. Makes me a really fast techer so I can go to my first war with a solid empire and superior tech units.

Also, with such a combo, I don't NEED to go to war at all. If there is no enemy near, I can just spam cities while maintaining huge tech advantage and grow way too powerful to stop. Industrious is pretty much only because my friend also loves stonehenge and pyramids and losing them is... well. You know. The whole plan goes to the garbage bin

If against AI, I'd probably take CHA and something else. CRE perhaps, to skip the stonehenge entirely while going straight to pyramids. Problem is, I also want other wonders, like temple of artemis or great Library, and I don't want to play the "race" every time. Industrious means I'm pretty much certain of getting it each game.

But I'll be very happy if you gave me more info on how NOT to depend on pyramids while rapid expanding - that'd be great!

Why is this? Against a longbow, the CR3 maceman still has a big chance of losing, while with four unpromoted maces, you can sacrifice one or two and win with the ones left over.

If he has one unit, true. But if there are, say, 3 longbows, the strongest one will be picked to be the top defender after you lose your unit , meaning, you have one unit less with pretty much no benefit at all.

CR3 macemen has a good chance of actually WINNING the fight - which is a totally different story. You end up against 2 longbowmen with, say, one healthy CR3 macemen and one damaged after the fight instead of ending with 0 macemen and 3 badly damaged longbows. Maybe it was just my bad luck, but that's how going for inexperienced mass usually ended in my games.

 

[Absolute Zero]

But the thing is, you don't need Industrious to get those wonders. Having stone is enough. If not, you can still get it if you have forests to chop. I often build early wonders without being Industrious or having stone, by chopping and working high-production tiles.

CR3 macemen has a good chance of actually WINNING the fight - which is a totally different story. You end up against 2 longbowmen with, say, one healthy CR3 macemen and one damaged after the fight instead of ending with 0 macemen and 3 badly damaged longbows. Maybe it was just my bad luck, but that's how going for inexperienced mass usually ended in my games.

OK, I don't know the exact numbers, but I don't think CR3 macemen have a good chance of winning against longbows. I don't think they even have greater than 50% chance.

 

[Czacki]

True. That wasn't meant to be an exact situation, but just an example.

Having stone is unfortunately rare And since my friend often goes industrious too... I either get it or say bye-bye to pyramids. Against AI, yeah, I don't see much point in industrious, where you probably have tech advantage and Ai can't snatch the wonders you want. Also, AI never rushes pyramids, afaik.

 

[dra]

here's my reasoning:
I need stonehenge. Why? Because without CRE it takes like FOREVER to get a city to get the terrain around it. If a city is placed optimally (snatches as much resources as it can), some of them cannot be harvested until first culture pop. Which really, badly slows you down. If the AI (or your friend) is near, you may lose invaluable terrain or resources because someone settles and pops the border faster then you.

I don't get it personally. Monument + forest chop takes 14 turns to pop, with stonehedge 10 but you invest some of this time in high production city. The only good side of it is early great prophet which combined with captured holy city is really powerful.

CR3 macemen has a good chance of actually WINNING the fight - which is a totally different story. You end up against 2 longbowmen with, say, one healthy CR3 macemen and one damaged after the fight instead of ending with 0 macemen and 3 badly damaged longbows. Maybe it was just my bad luck, but that's how going for inexperienced mass usually ended in my games.

Why fight against healthy Longbows? Bring in trebs

 

[Shikadi]

Protective is great with Churchill.

 

[Absolute Zero]

You can still chop forests. You could also win if you happen to start with more high-production tiles (although you don't have any control over that).

I don't think you NEED the Pyramids, though. You can still tech fine without them, and they're fairly expensive, so even if Industrious, building them will still slow down other areas - growth, military, etc. (Especially if you're building libraries and working scientists ASAP in new cities.)

Well, anyways, I think Charismatic is the best trait that directly helps warring, although I agree that France does not have such powerful UU/UB (it's still pretty decent, though).

Some other options:
-Augustus Caesar (Industrious/Imperialistic) has Praetorians, which are very strong, and also seem to fit with your early warring style (swords + HAs). You may not even need the HAs, as Praets can kill almost anything on their own.
-Huayna Capac (Industrious/Financial), like I said earlier, Financial is an economic trait, but it can help you tech faster, giving you better units, and Quechuas/Terraces are good as well.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Ramesses = Industrious + Spiritual

This is a great combination for Cultural Victory. Don't forget that I can not only build wonders 50% but also build Forge twice as fast, which adds even more production speed in my cities. At any level below Emperor, Stonehenge and Pyramids often possible without great defensive risk. Being Spirualist is great with Pyraminds because you can shift civics on the fly without anarchy. For cutural victory, the speed of Temple building is very useful, because, for example, with 3 religions and 9 cities, you're building 27 temples. Overall, I think that Spiritual is better than Financial for cultural victory strategy, but most people disagree with me on that.

 

[Ghpstage]

I'm pretty much a die-hard fan of industrious: Wonders like Stonehenge, Pyramids and Temple of Artemis are too good to let AI or another player get them.

Spending 640 on early wonders in multiplayer sounds like a good plan to me.....

It sounds as though you are relying on these crutches as you aren't sure what to do without the benefits they bring, and its clear you don't fully understand the costs of building them, the idea of getting both mids and henge being needed for good expansion is quite bizarre..

You might find Spiritual to be very handy, being able to swap between peace and wartime civic sets immediately will give a lot of flexibility when dealing with whatever the game throws at you.