Ways to exploit mutual protection and alliances

[Easy Rhino]

I don't know the answers to this, so I'm posting it as more a "exploration" kinda topic for everyone to use.

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executive summary:
I'm not sure how protection pacts work, but I think that they don't take effect until somebody gets shot. Not just a declaration of war.
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So, the game I'm playing has 7 civs, is in late industrial age, and everyone has been at peace for a pretty dang long time.

Also, I'm the smallest civ.

So, France is the biggest. They have about 3 mutual protection pacts. Including with Egypt. I don't like the Aztecs, they have one pact... with Egypt.

If I pick a fight with the Aztecs, then the Egyptians declared war on me, and when I shot them, France came in on my and then England. I got Iroquois and Romans. It ended up being 4 v. 3, and I was on the small side.

Then, I reloaded, bought a mutual protection with France, and started a fight with the Aztecs, Egypt jumped in against me again, and then France, and everyone else, joined my side. Strangely, despite more friends, we seemed to do worse in battle

But again, the pacts didn't kick in until somebody was actually attacked, so there was a bit of a lag before sides were jumping in.

I liked it.

ER

 

[Fierro1816]

The only way to activate the pact is attacking the civ. But, what kind of atack? In to his territory? On neutral zone to his units? Or what?

If you are fighting a defensive war others civs may stay neutral?

I don´t know, but one thing is certain: You hav to very prepared if you are about to get in a mayor conflict. Last time I enter in one for minor issues I lost most of my overseas territories (an the rest was pretty much destroyed).

Soo, don´t let them catch you off guard

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by Fierro1816
The only way to activate the pact is attacking the civ. But, what kind of atack? In to his territory? On neutral zone to his units? Or what?

If you are fighting a defensive war others civs may stay neutral?

I don´t know, but one thing is certain: You hav to very prepared if you are about to get in a mayor conflict. Last time I enter in one for minor issues I lost most of my overseas territories (an the rest was pretty much destroyed).

Soo, don´t let them catch you off guard

This is how the mutual protection pack works:

When you attack someone, their mutual protection partner (say A) will declare war on you. But.....if A has another mutual protection partner (say B), B will not declare war on you until you physically attack A

So, if someone (say A) declare war on you and both you and A has a mutual protection pack with B, B will declare war on the aggressor

As a good planner or general, you should use this to your advantages

 

[Easy Rhino]

Originally posted by Dark Sheer
As a good planner or general, you should use this to your advantages

I'm trying to figure out a way to make my total wartime only about 1 turn long, but still get the rest of the world sucked into a war to drain all their resources.

ER

 

[Ranges]

Hrrm...
You'd need a pretty hefty civ to do that.
Let me think.
You could try to make a web of mutual protection pacts, then taunt a civ until it attacks you. This should make a LOAD of civs declare war on eachother..
Now for the bad part. You need to time this extremely well. Especially since with the mutual protection pacts in place, you'll automatically declare war on a lot of people.
Basically; if there's just a bit of time lag, you'll end up with at least 4 or 5 years of war.. No good.
I do wonder though, WW1 starts on the 19th turn of all your mutual protection pacts.. would that free you for peace one turn later?
You might want to try that.. gonna be hard tho.
If you get this WW1 trick to work, tell me, i'd love to try it.

Greets,
Ranges

 

[Yeti]

Easy Rhino - that won't work well because after declaring war other civs often won't talk to you for a while.

I find a good way to make a war quick was:

Right of passage.
Build rails to each of their cities.
The turn I'm going to attack them, move my troops to just outside their cities BEFORE I attack, since until I can attack I can use the rails.
Take all their cities in one turn, and that's it, or take all that I want to if they're fairly large, and then make peace for a while.

But generally if you haven't taken at least a couple of their cities, they won't even see your diplomat for several turns so you have no opportunity for peace.

 

[eyrei]

I avoid any involvement in mutual protection pacts until I am certain another civ is going to declare war on me. It is usually obvious - the Germans land 8 Panzers right next to one of my cities. On my next turn, I go talk to all the civs with which I have good relations. I give them just about anything they want for a mutual protection pact. Then I tell the Germans to withdraw, at which point they declare war. I then attack their stack of units, at which point the entire world declares war on them. I finish off the "invasion" force, pump out a few units including a couple transports and settlers. After my allies raze a few German cities, I move in and colonize the void. The best part about this strategy is that after the initial attack force is dealt with, the Germans have their hands full dealing with the rest of the world, and don't have the time or resources to launch another attack. What fun!

 

[ironfang]

From my experience Mutual protection pacts are a HUGE pain in the a$$. However, they make the game very interesting.

The first time the Mutual Protection pacts really worked to my advantage. Persia, who had a military just a tiny bit smaller than mine (during the early Medival period) crossed into my lands. Prior to talking to the Persians, I signed into mutual protection pacts with nations on three other sides of Persia. Then I told Persia to withdraw its forces, and they declared war. While I was able to repulse its initial invasion, I knew I wouldnt be able to counter attack. And then it happened. Persia just stopped sending soldiers. It seems they were busy defending their borders from the north and south and left the west wide open. I then returned the favor and burnt persia to the ground.

The second time Mutual Protection came into play is during my game now when Greece pulled an alliance with my LONG time allies the Zulu, who pulled an Alliance with Germany and Babalon, then Germany pulled its Alliance with Russia, China, and Japan and the Japanese called on the French. I called on the Iriquois who called on the Romans. So now its 8 vrs 3. Now, the odds arent as bad as they look. My nation makes up for about 3 nations, and the the Germans, French, Chineese, Japanese, and Russians are 8 moves of Ocean away. The Romans and Greeks share a large island (Romans are crushing the greeks).

So far I have pounded the Greeks (who are no longer at war with me, but are still fighting Rome), Zulus and Germans into sumbission. I have am burning a trail of destruction all the way to the babalonian capital, and have "begun" a beach head invasion into the Chineese nation.

See what mutual protection pacts can do to you.

ironfang

 

[eyrei]

Yeah. If you really want a world war, MPPs are the way to go. Sometimes, you can remain out of the war while still technically being in it. THis is a great oppurtunity to forge ahead in science and commerce.

 

[passon]

In my very first game I play as the Germans. We were 7 civs left. (Chinese, Egyptians and Indians were gone) I have had my golden age, I´m was leading the technology race. I wiped out the Chinese very eraly and when Egypt attacked me they got chrushed by everyone else. That was sort of the first ww. We didn´t have much alliances then, but everyone was for one reason or another pissed on Cleo...

Then followed chaos in the ancient Egyptian lands. Everyone barged in for the scraps, recourses and land. I stayed pretty much outside and guarded my conquered cities.
This was early industrial age.

After the war I ended up in strong alliances with America, Babylon and Persia. The rest, Azteks, Japanese and Iriquais made up own pacts.
Now I really began to upgrade my military, much thanks to technological advances. So when I got my panzers rolling out of Berlin and Hamburg I felt up for it again.
It´s worth mentioning that the Japanese had been troublesome for me in the past. Minor border disputes had given me some of their cities. And they only had three cities left on my continent. (They had a pretty large homeland on the continent where Persia and Babylon are.)
Suddenly I noticed a japanese bowman sneeking from one city to another inside my borders. I asked the japs to get out. They got him out, but I was annoyed and decided to get some cash for this.
After a couple of hard bargains the japanese were broke, and I concentrated again on my "Egyptian" cities. Suddenly out of the blue the japs attacked a border cavalry and all hell broke loose.
Persia, Babylon and America joined on my side. And when I attacked "poor" japan the Iriquais and Aztek not only declared war on me, but on America. (These three are on the same continent) So suddenly I faced a two front world war with strong allies. (Not a chance I´m gonna loose this one, I thought) But as I concentrated my fire on the japanese to get them of my continent, the Aztek and Iriquai really kicked US but. So I managed to ship over some panzers to help US. After my first win over an Aztek knight they offered peace. I accepted, foolish... Now they could really batter the US. I did though keep up with pounding the Iriquai. But since more Aztek troops came in I found it harder to help Lincoln and his dudes. (The Persians and Babylonians never showed up).
I managed to save three American cities before I was forced to attack the Azteks. NOW out of a sudden my old friends Persians and Babylonians turned coats and joined the other side.
Well, some loooong turns and lots of blood later I have lost about 70% of my land, my allies, and America had perished.
After I couldn´t get trade-treaties with anyone. So I started to offer advanced techs. DUMB!
I got some halfgood treaties, and started to plan for a total world wide domination. This was in the late industrial age. However, when I had this army (which consited mostly of old units) and started the march back into my old lands they all swarmed at me again. And I joined coffin with Abe. 1954 AD.

In my other games I really focus on who´s who, then I only use millitary forces for defense. I got so spooked it´s gonna take a long time before I will start a war again.

So I take it, after reading your guys texts, that alliances work differently.

 

[passon]

I also forgot to ask if anyone has experienced the same thing as I have;

If I start a game with more than 8 civs (including me) the foreign advisor don´t show everyone. Even when some civs gets killed. There´s just a blank, eventhough there are others to fill up with?
Is this a bug or just the way it works. Because without it you really can´t know which civs that are together...

 

[Fierro1816]

Same thing here.

I´m playing a huge map with 16 civs. I eat up 3 civs and eventualy meet all the others. Now when I look the foreign advisor it doesn´t show all the civs...

 

[Malys Faisent]

It was bad programming, but you can shift + right click on any leaders head (or an empty spot) and you'll get a menu of the other available civs to talk to...

I cannot believe they didn't scale the diplomacy screen for the 16 different civs that could possibly be in the game...

 

[DavesWorld]

That's how you use MPAs eyrei!

But basically signing MPAs is like signing a blank check for war; someone else on these boards used that term for it and I like how it rings. Never sign one unless you WANT the fight.

I have Science Broker game going now in 1680; have watched the entire world (7 other civs) wage World War against one another, all because they have MPAs with each other and it all kicked off when Babylon attacked France back in 1520. The funny thing is I'm the only one with tanks (now Modern Armor, I gave Tanks to the 'French' side of the WW because I'm rooting against Babylon right now); I have a standing army of over 100 Modern Armor and 50 Artillery (about to be RadarArtillery) sitting in my huge 25 city Civ. I watch while they all fight tooth and nail and leave me out of it. I'm revered culturally and intellectually by all other civs, and have a larger military than any of them. And I'm about to build ICBMs.

I expect to win via Diplomatic soon, then I'm going to continue the game as a save purely to play with advanced world war.

Until then I expect the computer will never break out of the MPA induced WW cycles.