We need this structure (army base)

dreadknought

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DOCTOR WHO 2005
One thing That I would really like to see added is army base to build instead of so many cities. To me it is tiring to manage so many cities as you take over enemy territory that are mostly not that productive anyway. If you could build a base with just a few options to add that would cost support but could contain airport,missile defense,barracks ect it would really help. The base would have the same area of control as a city but no possible culture value and no chance to culture flip to the other side. You could not build units here but could repair units and get a nice defense bonus. Probaly should cost you like 3-4 gold per turn to maintain the base. The ai could build these bases also once they have maxed out their city build........dread....
 
Yeah, it could replace the "useless" outpost in PTW...
 
It sounds like a great idea, and is a good counterpart for the airfield. To the people who have PTW: can you build multiple improvements on a square? I mean, can you stack a radar towar and an airbase and a colony on the same square? I realize that it would probably be better to build a city in this case, but regardless, could someone clue me in about this?
 
no you cant have multiple improvements like that.
 
I like the army base idea.
 
That's too bad about not being able to build multiple improvements on a square. Otherwise, you could still keep your corruption low by building airport/army base/radar tower/fortress stacks instead of cities in the areas that were potential military chokepoints.
 
Actually I think it would be better if the PTW outpost functioned like a barracks (similar to what dreadknought and Silverflame were suggesting), although it shouldn't be able to operate aircraft (that's what the airfield is for).

But it would be nice to have a "base" that couldn't be culturally assimilated (like an outpost). But it would present the possibility of an exploit by the human player that the AI might not be able to counter.
 
If the military base would have a cultural area (say, the smallest possible: 3x3 tiles) and no chance of flipping, then it ought to cost A LOT to maintain or otherwise have some drawbacks. Both the attributes, the culture zone and no flip, are reasonable: a military base does have an area of control (one reason why it is there) and culture flipping does not make much sense in a military context.

But, but... An immediately obvious exploit: Once you have a core civ with good production and a hefty income, you start cranking out workers and filling the world with military bases. (I assume a base would cost you a worker like the other improvements.) This way you get the land conquest benefit of the cities but without any of the disadvantages: unhappiness, corruption, maintenance of improvements, etc.

I _do_ think the idea of a distant military base (or "improved outpost") has merit. It ought to be possible to control a valuable strategic location, like the Panama and Suez canals, without building a distant colony. Which in civ would flip over to the enemy sooner or later, anyway.

Of course, you might say that the Suez DID culture flip to the Egyptians in the real world.

How about this:

Make several levels of "outposts":

1 - Outpost. Your basic "lookout" lifting the fog-of-war. Just like the current one in PTW.
2 - Army Camp. By using up another worker your outpost is improved into an army camp. Additional benefit: heals land units.
3 - Military Fortress. Yet another worker added gives this. Additional benefit: area of control (i.e. cultural border of size 1).
4a - Naval Base. One more worker and you get docks. Benefit: repairing naval units possible (but not constructing new units, of course!)
4b - Military Base: This time the worker added an airfield and the assortments. Benefit: air units (including missiles) can be rebased and repaired.

(4a and 4b are separate because not every military base has access to coast)

Costs should, of course, be editable in the editor to suit scenario needs but I think in the ordinary game they should be significant to prevent me from building hundreds of them. For example:

Outpost - 5 gpt
Army Camp - 20 gpt
Military Fortress - 100 gpt
Naval/Military Base - 200 gpt

For example, mind you. Would have to be adjusted by test playing, of course. The goal should be that you can build and maintain some bases, but not tens of them and certainly not hundreds.

And to spice up things :) : Make a military base subject to a _conditional_ culture flip. Once a base would flip if it were a small size 1 city, the cultural conqueror has the option to either let the base remain there or demand a rent for it (e.g. trade window opens and you can then negotiate a rent for the next 20 turns). If no agreement can be reached then the flip takes place and the former owner can declare war without hurting his rep if he wants to. Naturally, if the other party is very weak he may not want to demand a rent in the first place...

(This would fit in with real world, too: Gibraltar is still British and Spain doesn't want to start a war for it. Hong Kong was given over to the Chinese when the negotiated lease for 99 years terminated and the Chinese were "frankly not inclined to continue it" and "would never accept such deal" :) )
 
Gr8 idea, any way to implement it? Actually the costs seem to be too high, maybe 5/20/40/60 would be enough... (could be also map size dependent and/or difficulty dependent)
 
Cool idea about army base! How about units based in/stationed at army/naval/air bases not contribute to upkeep of the entire forces? How about army/naval/air bases have an upkeep of their on say 4 gold/turn (or be dependent on the number of units based their up to 4 gold/turn or something like that) and any units based their have free upkeep? Units based in cities would of course have to pay the standard 1 gold/turn per unit.

No cultural flipping after all these are volunteers not draftees. Besides if you produce no culture how will you defend against culture? Or am I mistaken on how cultural flipping works?

How many squares should it take up? One or four? I vote one because I want my cities to have the land for production.
 
I like your ideas pembroke, but arent your upkeep costs a bit high? The outpost should have zero upkeep cost just like in PTW, and the others seem slightly too high. With the army base idea, settlers could be "wheeled" so we have no more cities in the jungles and deserts.
 
I like the idea...This improvement could even begin in the ancient times as outposts (like the ones in PTW except they actually would be useful). Romans used this to control outer portions of their empire without building cities and cities like Paris and London formed from these outpost...Outposts could serve as a zone of control to stretch the cultural borders without having to build a city...
 
Oh well, maybe 200 gpt is somewhat excessive...

Finetuning, finetuning. :)

Wtiberon, yes, I didn't think of techs at all, but it would seem most logical to tie each outpost improvement level to some tech advance.

And come to think of it: This principle of having several levels of tile improvements could be used with other types, too. (In Civ2 there was the "double irrigated" farmland.) If there were several additional improvement levels for irrigation (or maybe it should then be dubbed farming improvements with irrigated as one level) and mining (like open pit, shaft mine, with water pumps, etc.) the workers would have something to do in the later ages, too.

If these improvements also ran a reasonable small per turn cost you would perhaps end up with a better looking scenery than the current ugly "mine/irrigate+road+railroad everything". If the resource optimum were to have a few expensive but high yielding mines instead of lots of low-cost mines then good mining sites would become strategically important, too.
 
no, 200 gpt is not excessive, maybe a bit high, it is relatively easy to rake in lots and lots of money through tech brokering, somthing around 150 may be a bit of a better price, someone who loves having money could have a line of them which is not what dreadknought probably had in mind. so the price must be high.



I reckon it should be able to make conscripts(or maybe even less than that) at a rate one per turn. and two per turn if it is the highest tier, thats why you need high prices, two of these babies outside your enemies cities should drain your coffers dearly.

However, by the modern age whe this is useful, there is no land leeft usually.
simply restrict where you can build cities, and make there borders grow slowly, much much more slowly. otherwise this is all pointless.
 
The unflippable aspect is one of the most important parts of these proposed army bases. If you feared culture flipping you could surround your cities with a ring on military bases that would prevent enemy cultures from encroaching on your territory. This is a potential exploit but the upkeep costs could be set high enough that it would be cheaper to just build a ring of cities with temple/library/university/cathedral to keep out opposing cultural influence. Maybe if the military base had a 1x1 culture radius instead on 3x3 it would be less unbalancing.
 
who was it who said "culture flip this Babalon"

culture isn't a question as far as a military base is concerned unless we're going to let units mutany also or are going to have units producing culture also.
the entire problem with this is a skiewed concept of land ownership, no? personally I think that any square with one of your units in it, unless you have a right of passage, should be counted as yours.
hey then you could "culture"-flip cities by surronding them with units!:D
 
These are some really good ideas! I like it.

I like the upkeep cost to keep a player from building endless numbers of bases everywhere, but an alternative to this (or even in addition to this) you should need say 4 (?) cities for each military base.

Or maybe even an incremental amount:

4 cities needed for the first base
5 more cities needed for the second base (total of 9)
6 more cities needed for the third base (total of 15)
...etc.

Or something like that.
 
Originally posted by Suki
who was it who said "culture flip this Babalon"

culture isn't a question as far as a military base is concerned unless we're going to let units mutany also or are going to have units producing culture also.
the entire problem with this is a skiewed concept of land ownership, no? personally I think that any square with one of your units in it, unless you have a right of passage, should be counted as yours.
hey then you could "culture"-flip cities by surronding them with units!:D

It was bamspeedy who said "culture flip this Babylon :ninja: "

Interesting idea on cultureflipping with units, though. Some sort of intimidation or something?
 
Hmmm Im impressed with all these ideas and my main goal is to be able to build safe areas to station troops on enemy shores. As such I think the limit on bases should be what you can afford to pay out. I wont to make sure that the base is culture neutral so it is truely a safe place to put troops. That said here are the good and bad points to having a army base structure. GOOD: protected area for troops, extend your territory without building a useless city, use this to capture resources without a city nearby with far away colonies, a defense bonus........BAD:.......not a city so, no gold,no unit builds,no land developement, must pay high support, no production value at all,and while this extends your land territory is does not help your culture at all (culture neutral). I dont think most people will over build this because you really just have a structure to house troops that gains you nothing else . You have to bring in the troops and support this from a far on enemy territory which will attract attention. I think that this would have to probaly be a civ4 addition because the ai would have to learn about this new struture also and how to use it. I would love to see the ai use this when it had maxed cities out in games rather than just raze everything. We could make an additional structure (army headquarters HQ ) to make a more complex struture that brings some additional features as everyone has mentioned or the (HQ) could be a small wonder. Thx peops for all the great feed back. Now lets get the powers that be interesting in this so we can have fun with it in civ4........dread
 
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