weakest triats

[budweiser]

People dismiss the 1 culture point from a monument. But behold! Build it early, like in 3000 BC or 2000BC or 1000BC and it will double itself to 2 in just 1000 years! And I recomend whipping it when the new city grows to two. So your first few cities, if you are creative can really press a border attack that will even stymie an enemy capital. A city pushing those 4 culture points per turn will also push you up on the power graph because much of it is based on number of tiles you control. And if creative, you should soon build a library in your first few cities for even more of a boost. Just dont expand too fast and neglect defense like I did in my last game. I tried to slow build a monument on unimproved tiles in my second city which was working flood plains. Stupid.

I think people look at what culture does but dont think about it much beyond a single fast border pop and then dismiss it as kinda useless. Its a really good way to get land.

I am all about offenseive culture this week.

 

[Silence101]

Oh, come now, brotha, that border expansion can be very OP in early wars and land rush. Simply due to the 2 culture points, I no longer need to build Stonehenge or any monuments when taking over my neighbor in early game. I can go straight into infrastructure, or defense if necessary. Plus, I've been able to claim resources that the foolish AI thought it owned because my borders popped before his even tho he settled near the resource long before I did. 8 turns is all it takes on Epic. I love creative, It's perfect for warmongering (ironically)

I would agree with everything here, but the key word is early... after the beginning of the game - once you discover drama, you can build culture in a city which effectively negates this attribute. (You can even build culture during an uprising in a town for some reason - so for the six or so turns right after you take over a city that the city is in an uprising, you could be spending that time building culture.) The 2 culture/turn is a useful quality for the Creative trait, but it seems to me that it has an extremely short shelf life... no real value after drama.

Additionally, by mid game, I normally find that those early cities I built are pumping out a good degree of culture and have reclaimed any land that I might have lost to a creative neighbor.

I think Creative's real advantage probably comes from cheaper libraries... but I would'nt pick creative just for that. (As I mentioned previously, libraries arn't too expensive at full price.)

 

[Silence101]

People dismiss the 1 culture point from a monument. But behold! Build it early, like in 3000 BC or 2000BC or 1000BC and it will double itself to 2 in just 1000 years! And I recomend whipping it when the new city grows to two.

That's another good point - if you really need the early culture, whipping a monument is pretty quick and painless.

 

[Antilogic]

Creative's advantage is not just cheap libraries, but the cheap cost of whipping libraries--you only need to sacrifice 1-2 people and can get it rather quickly. Whipping a full library without Creative is a more costly prospect, requiring usually 3-4 people until you get it past the half-way mark. Also, I'd rather not waste 1 population whipping a monument simply because that building is nearly useless (unless you are Charismatic, and it's completely useless for a Creative leader). That population point can go to better things...

 

[Silence101]

Creative's advantage is not just cheap libraries, but the cheap cost of whipping libraries--you only need to sacrifice 1-2 people and can get it rather quickly. Whipping a full library without Creative is a more costly prospect, requiring usually 3-4 people until you get it past the half-way mark.

With that reasoning, wouldn't you rather have ORG for the cheaper courthouses or IND for the cheaper forges? ...given that it costs more to whip a full priced courthouse or forge than a full priced library.

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't done the math), but I believe it would be cheaper to whip both a monument and a library at full price than a courthouse at full price. (And I don't put a monument in every city.)

 

[Silence101]

No - correction to my latest: monument (30) + library (90) = courthouse (120)

Still, since I don't build a monument everywhere, I'd rather have the cheaper courthouse.

 

[JujuLautre]

The 2 culture/turn is a useful quality for the Creative trait, but it seems to me that it has an extremely short shelf life... no real value after drama.

I completly disagree with that.
First, because if you want to sacrifice production to culture you can do it as you wish, but not sacrificing any is still better.
But mostly second, because creative still means that, against a non-creative opponent and considering equivalent cities, you will always win culture wars! You will always have more culture, earlier, and cheap theatres increases that once more.

That's another good point - if you really need the early culture, whipping a monument is pretty quick and painless.

Do you often whip a momument? Sacrifice so much for a so sheap thing? A never do for myself. And in any case, I am certain a can claim that 2 culture per turn right of the bat is far more superior to whiping a monument.

I love creative, It's perfect for warmongering (ironically)

I must say a agree with that

 

[azzaman333]

Oh, come now, brotha, that border expansion can be very OP in early wars and land rush. Simply due to the 2 culture points, I no longer need to build Stonehenge or any monuments when taking over my neighbor in early game. I can go straight into infrastructure, or defense if necessary. Plus, I've been able to claim resources that the foolish AI thought it owned because my borders popped before his even tho he settled near the resource long before I did. 8 turns is all it takes on Epic. I love creative, It's perfect for warmongering (ironically)

Yeah, I've changed my mind on Creative. It's now one of my favourite traits.

 

[IAM]

I conquer.. concur.

I have started ajusting my whole game using creative. Use to butt fat cross to fat cross to utilize the best city sites. Creative coupled with another boost like state religion and I spread my cities out to occupy the optimal position confident that unclaimed spaces will quickly be absorbed.

I can position a city to culture grab a lot more resources or cut off areas I wish to deny access to. Is it love? I don't know but I'm in very strong like with creative.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, I understand that Drama may overshadow Creative trait to some, however, I'd rather use that 20% of my commerce to remain ahead in the Tech game. This is especially important on higher levels where the human player must fight with blood sweat and tears to stay ahead of rival AI like Mansa Musa and Ghandi.

 

[Silence101]

I completly disagree with that.
First, because if you want to sacrifice production to culture you can do it as you wish, but not sacrificing any is still better.
But mostly second, because creative still means that, against a non-creative opponent and considering equivalent cities, you will always win culture wars! You will always have more culture, earlier, and cheap theatres increases that once more.

I think we may have to agree to disagree then. While I can't dispute the validity of the points that you've made, I think you're overstating the advantage that it gives. +2 culture per turn is not that much (especially in culture war), and I've always found it easy to overcome. I said previously that Creative is not without value, but I'd rather have AGG, FIN, IND, PHI, maybe SPI.

I rarely play the Creative trait, and I don't have problems with losing land and cities to Creative neighbors.

Yeah, I understand that Drama may overshadow Creative trait to some, however, I'd rather use that 20% of my commerce to remain ahead in the Tech game. This is especially important on higher levels where the human player must fight with blood sweat and tears to stay ahead of rival AI like Mansa Musa and Ghandi.

I was talking about using the city's production to produce culture for that individual city. It sounds like you're talking about using the cultural slider, which I agree, I would rather apply that to tech. I would only consider using the culture slider if I was going for a cultural victory or I was in an extended war and needed to generate happiness. It's really rare that I ever use it.

 

[JujuLautre]

I think we may have to agree to disagree then. While I can't dispute the validity of the points that you've made, I think you're overstating the advantage that it gives. +2 culture per turn is not that much (especially in culture war), and I've always found it easy to overcome. I said previously that Creative is not without value, but I'd rather have AGG, FIN, IND, PHI, maybe SPI.

I rarely play the Creative trait, and I don't have problems with losing land and cities to Creative neighbors.

Notice I said "equivalent cities"

I think you're just smarter than the computer in terms of culture war. But mathematicaly speaking, with equivalent cities, a creative leader will have an advantage. That is always true I think

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

Protective is a pretty bad trait. I mean, it does have its benefits. But it's just not that good!

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Protective is a pretty bad trait. I mean, it does have its benefits. But it's just not that good!

With sititing bull it rocks.
1- protective gives city defense 1
2- totem gives city deefense 2
3- barracks give city defense 3

With two buildings, your cities are almost impregnable, and the tech race should be manageable with philisophical allowing bulbing. Protectine is useful for large empires, if you have many cities to protect, and not enough gold to upkeep large garrisons.

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

You're right.

But it just doesn't work as well if you're playing as anyone other than Sitting Bull.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Any leader with protective+barracks make your cities very easy to hold, allowing you to focus on other things, like offensive armies, culture, and expansion. This is very helpfuyl if the barbarian invasion random event happens early non your borders. I think protective is very powerful.

 

[mudphud]

My problem with protective is that it helps me protective my cities but what about the pillaging that can ruin my economy?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I was talking about using the city's production to produce culture for that individual city. It sounds like you're talking about using the cultural slider, which I agree, I would rather apply that to tech. I would only consider using the culture slider if I was going for a cultural victory or I was in an extended war and needed to generate happiness. It's really rare that I ever use it.

Using the build culture option for a city in uprising seems to be a bug that needs fixing, but until then it would seem to be the only advantage to overshadow the creative trait. In order for this to equal out, you would need to start the game with drama and build culture in all cities that you found until after the third border pop (culture = 750 on Epic). It seems a little unreasonable to consider this an equal to the culture trait itself in which you can keep your science slider higher, continue building units and buildings in your cities, and not waste precious hammers.

 

[Silence101]

Using the build culture option for a city in uprising seems to be a bug that needs fixing, but until then it would seem to be the only advantage to overshadow the creative trait. In order for this to equal out, you would need to start the game with drama and build culture in all cities that you found until after the third border pop (culture = 750 on Epic). It seems a little unreasonable to consider this an equal to the culture trait itself in which you can keep your science slider higher, continue building units and buildings in your cities, and not waste precious hammers.

I was talking about building culture to expand your fat cross... (culture = 10 on normal)... so you can have a city that is in an uprising for six turns build culture and come out of the uprising with expanded boarders. At that point point, I probably wouldn't build culture any longer.

 

[Silence101]

Notice I said "equivalent cities"

I think you're just smarter than the computer in terms of culture war. But mathematicaly speaking, with equivalent cities, a creative leader will have an advantage. That is always true I think

I think you could make the same arguement about virtually any trait... two idenically sized empires and ORG will have the advantage. Two civ's with identical amounts of GP points coming in - PHI will have the advantage. Two offensive armies - AGG will have the advantage. There's so many other factors that you have to consider. A well placed GP could easily change the tide of a culture battle.

And while you're feeling good about your culturally superior equivalent city, I'll take my aggressive army and raze your little cultural paradise. No more boarder problem.