Weapons Database

[Chandrasekhar]

As with so many other fantasy settings, it's so easy to get caught up in clichés when designing units, heroes, and their weapons in FfH. I've decided to make a small list of weapons used in FfH, and weapons that haven't been incorperated.

Hopefully, this will lead to more variety in the weapons used by the units that are still being designed. While a Svartalfar Swordsman might be pretty cool in itself, a Svartalfar Flailer just has a more lasting impact. I know that it may be seen as superfluous to add units whose base graphics weren't included in vanilla Civ IV, but with all the progress that has been made in the graphics department already, I think it's not entirely vain to hope for more varied units in the future.

FfH Weapons:
Axe
Longsword
Club
Hatchet
Shortbow
Staff
Dagger (Knife, Kunai, etc.)
Crossbow
Longbow
Mace (though it looks more like a flail in-game)
Spear (Pike, etc.)
Arquebus
Warhammer
Scythe (though it ought to be used more often) {Draconian}
Sling {Sashaddin}
Javelin (thrown, of course)

Whew, that's a lot of weapons! Just the handheld ones, here, but that's what I'm hoping to brainstorm on. If I missed any, please point it out to me. Now, for the weapons that aren't used. I'll be adding to this list as suggestions come in, so feel free to speak up and add one.

Flail (I know it looks like the maceman uses one of these, but I wouldn't mind seeing maces and flails)
Tonfa (I know it's not traditionally a weapon of large-scale warfare, but I'm listing it anyway)
Whip (hey, it might be cool for a hero)
Nunchaku (you know you want it...)
Kama (might be cool)
Gopher Chucks (cookie to fastest person to say what movie this is from)
Halberd (bardige, boar-spear, etc.) {Keldan}

Exotic blades {Draconian, Samael, puck, QES}:
--Katana
--Greatsword (need a good picture, too)
--Shamshir
--Scimitar
--Rapier
--Falchion (yup, it ain't so pretty)
--Gisarme
--Glaive
Heavy Lance (with banners... can't find a good picture) {Loki}
Two-bladed Staff {Loki}

I know there has to be more weapons out there. Go ahead and say what you think of these, and add your own.

 

[khanjackal]

kung pow, underrated movie

 

[Keldan]

Missing shaft weapons : halberd, bardige, boar-spear, etc.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

kung pow, underrated movie

Definitely. Not exactly a masterpiece, but very funny. *gives cookie*

... and yes, I know the name of the movie was in the URL. I just wanted to include that picture.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Missing shaft weapons : halberd, bardige, boar-spear, etc.

Right, added in. Perhaps I should make the javalin a separate class, seeing as how javalins could be thrown, but no one does so. I think it's promising for an Orc archer unit, better than what they have now.

 

[Draconian]

The Wraith uses a scythe.

And the best closecombat weapon ever is missing: the katana!
The Elven Maceman could be changed into an Elven Swordmaster bearing a Katana. A brutal mace is imo a weird weapon choice for those Woodelves. Wouldn't an elegant bladeweapon suit them far better?
A Greatsword would be nice aswell.

 

[loki1232]

I think that bannered lances would be cool on knights.
Katana's are nice.
A staff with blades on the ends?

 

[Chalid]

Some of the listed weapons are not included for a very simple reason. They have flexible parts, so they cannot be attached to existing units but need entirely new meshes and animations (the weapons themself need to have bones).

For this reason adding those is a lot of work.

 

[Sashaddin]

A scout with a sling? Lightweight, easy to carry, distance weapon. 0-1 first strike

Naginata, replaces Pike for oriental-style civs.

Some units could use large tower shields, like Bannor Paladins. They could give a single stoneskin layer when fighting archers for exemple. Which one is the phase with the equipment and when is it supposed to be available?

 

[QES]

I understand the facination with the Weapons of the Eastern Hemisphere, Like Katana, Kukuri, Kama (lots of ks), and Nunchuku

But, traditionally and perhaps for good reason, the Fatansy Setting has been one of European Middle ages. Thank JRRT for that. While a Katana may be indeed the greatest bladed weapon in RL history, it is not a fantastic setting in the traditional sense. Now, if you want to incorporate Eastern Fantasy (a sub-genre to its own, through mythos etc) then I am VERY ok with that. But then it should be represented in a specific CIV, not in units that are accessible to all. Keep the western weapons with the west, and the eastern weapons with the east. This does two things, KEEPS flavor consistant, AND adds to the dynamic of travel and "exotic" nature of certain civs.

I wouldnt mind a singular Eastern-styled fantasy civ. With all the monsters, myths, weapons and designs there in. But that'd be a tall order of work.
-Qes

 

[loki1232]

Why? I don't understand why the FfH civs have to be consistent with LotR.
As long as a weapon looks nice, why does it matter where it comes from IRL? The FfH civs are not divided by real world races, sos why should their weapons be?

Also, Katanas are awesome weapons, perhaps for a grigori blademaster, elven swordsman, and hippus berserkers. I mean, why not?

 

[QES]

Why? I don't understand why the FfH civs have to be consistent with LotR.
As long as a weapon looks nice, why does it matter where it comes from IRL? The FfH civs are not divided by real world races, sos why should their weapons be?

Also, Katanas are awesome weapons, perhaps for a grigori blademaster, elven swordsman, and hippus berserkers. I mean, why not?

For the same reason you dont see half-elf half-dwarf hybrids. When you say Half-elf you mean half-human half-elf. When you say half-orc, you mean half-human half-orc.

Of course the others are possibilties, but it destroys context. Exotic weapons are often cool BECAUSE they are exotic. I'm totally cool with seeing katana, kukuri, and kamas in games. But i think that then they should belong to a specific civ. THAT will make them special. If exotic and esoteric weapons get use willy-nilly in contexts in which they dont typically belong, they lose their meaning, they lose their coolness, and create questions without direction.

Id love to see those kind of weapons in game, but it destroys flavor if Elves suddenly and inexplicably start weilding katana. What happened to longswords? What was wrong with longswords? WHere did the style change come in?

This is the other thing - style. Styles of weapons developed in different parts of the RL world for a very good reason, exposure to one another. If Medieval Europe was Exposed to Medieval Japan (despite the time differential) then both areas would be influence and a homogenous theme would eventually emerge. Homogenization is key, as it fundamentally describes the purpose of each weapon. Katana are not used like Bastard swords of Europe (the closest equivilant) SHeilds and the like were not used commonly by Samurai. Different fighting styles emerged from different focuses in combat. WHen we mix and match we ignore this fundamental principle, and it ruines both tacit logical explaination, AND flavor.

As i said, I'm very cool with the idea of an Eastern Civ that could have access to any/all of these eastern weapons. It'd make it VERY unique and flavorful. But when we wontonly mix and match weapons in each civ.....it ruins the flavor of all of them.
-Qes

EDIT: It'd be like having Elves in dwarven civs , Orcs in vampire civs, etc. While there may be a religious reason (leaves, runes) for the implemtation of strange raced units in alternate civs, it creates questions that need resolving. Keep them seperate, and you add flavor.

 

[puck11b]

Ok, rant time. The rant is in the spoiler so feel free to skip it *grin*

Spoiler :

Ok, here goes. The katana is a fine sword for the types of armour that it was up against, namely laminated wood held together with strings. The katana is USELESS against European style heavy armour. Contrary to what you read on teh intarnets and see in movies, katanas can not slice through steel plate.
The shape of the katana is for draw cuts, the back curve of the sword places the edge of the blade in contact with your foe along the entire sweep of the blow as you draw the sword through. This action decreases the force but increases the shear. Against a lightly armoured or unarmoured foe this is ideal as it will do more damage. Against a foe in maile it makes a screech noise and leaves a little bruise. Against a foe in maile and plate it fails to leave a bruise but will still make the annoying screech. It simply lacks the mass necessary.
The weapon to use against a foe in maile and plate is one that is capable of smashing through light armour and dent and crushing heavy armour. We are talking of maces, flails, and hammers, and to a lesser extent long swords. The impact weapons are designed to focus their energy and force in a small area, so the entire energy of your swing and the mass of the weapon is focused on an impact area the size of a quarter or smaller. With a long sword their are two effective tactics to use against heavy armour. The first is going to half sword and thrusting into the armpits and groin (weak spots in the maile). The second is flipping the sword around and using the quillons as your impact weapon (called a murder stroke).
But but but katannas were folded 6 thousand times..
Yeah, and? The reason for the folding was because the Japanese had very impure ore to start with, the folding would help to homogenize the steel and burn out impurities. Authentic swords were normally folded 10 times, and there are NO historical examples of swords folded more than 20 or so. After you fold the steel more than a dozen times or so you have removed all of the impurities that you are going to and are just burning off the carbon, making the poor quality steel even worse. The pattern welding that they did was ingenious, but this is getting far enough afield as it is.
In short, the katana is a beautiful weapon and a piece of art. In the style of war for which they evolved and were designed they were excellent weapons. They are not, however, the best close quarter combat weapon ever.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Some of the listed weapons are not included for a very simple reason. They have flexible parts, so they cannot be attached to existing units but need entirely new meshes and animations (the weapons themself need to have bones).

For this reason adding those is a lot of work.

I'm fully aware of this, Chalid. I know that a lot of these weapons (nunchaku, I'm looking at you) probably won't be added. I also know that many of these weapons, if added, will only be added later on down the line or when the art team gets ahead of the design team. Still, it's hardly hurting anything to throw some ideas out there, just in case one or two of them strikes someone's fancy.

And nice writeup, puck. It confirmed my suspicions, at least. We'll have to see what other responses it gets. However, I'm still adding the katana, and a few other weapons, to the lists.

 

[QES]

Ok, rant time. The rant is in the spoiler so feel free to skip it *grin*

Spoiler :

Ok, here goes. The katana is a fine sword for the types of armour that it was up against, namely laminated wood held together with strings. The katana is USELESS against European style heavy armour. Contrary to what you read on teh intarnets and see in movies, katanas can not slice through steel plate.
The shape of the katana is for draw cuts, the back curve of the sword places the edge of the blade in contact with your foe along the entire sweep of the blow as you draw the sword through. This action decreases the force but increases the shear. Against a lightly armoured or unarmoured foe this is ideal as it will do more damage. Against a foe in maile it makes a screech noise and leaves a little bruise. Against a foe in maile and plate it fails to leave a bruise but will still make the annoying screech. It simply lacks the mass necessary.
The weapon to use against a foe in maile and plate is one that is capable of smashing through light armour and dent and crushing heavy armour. We are talking of maces, flails, and hammers, and to a lesser extent long swords. The impact weapons are designed to focus their energy and force in a small area, so the entire energy of your swing and the mass of the weapon is focused on an impact area the size of a quarter or smaller. With a long sword their are two effective tactics to use against heavy armour. The first is going to half sword and thrusting into the armpits and groin (weak spots in the maile). The second is flipping the sword around and using the quillons as your impact weapon (called a murder stroke).
But but but katannas were folded 6 thousand times..
Yeah, and? The reason for the folding was because the Japanese had very impure ore to start with, the folding would help to homogenize the steel and burn out impurities. Authentic swords were normally folded 10 times, and there are NO historical examples of swords folded more than 20 or so. After you fold the steel more than a dozen times or so you have removed all of the impurities that you are going to and are just burning off the carbon, making the poor quality steel even worse. The pattern welding that they did was ingenious, but this is getting far enough afield as it is.
In short, the katana is a beautiful weapon and a piece of art. In the style of war for which they evolved and were designed they were excellent weapons. They are not, however, the best close quarter combat weapon ever.

I agree, weapons are designed to counter armor, which is designed to counter weapons, ad infanitum. Katana's are beautiful and powerful because of their implementation and genius of craft, they are not however a "cure all answer". Medieval weapons may be lacking in a one on one unarmed duel, but on the battle field, plate mail and maces were the best weapons/armor.

Longswords, as mentioned were not the best for attacking Mailed opponents, they were commonly useful as a secondary weapon of a mounted soldier, after his lance broke (which WAS useful against armored opponents). The longswords use allowed a knight to carry on with his task after his lance broke, and became a symbol (like the katana) of social status. That is where the facination comes from. But for a ground to ground melee, a warhammer/mace/flail made a far more effective weapon. Further back in history, the spear was superior, because length and tactics, used legions of phalanx go "mow" (almost literally) the opposition into the ground, the heaviest armor was the shieild which as it was bronze and nearly the size of a man, made back up armor almost needless. Spears then reached out some 8 feet to stab at an enemy group, not an individual soldier. Is this to say that the spear and sheild are inferior to maces? and Mail? If i pit a troop of 5000 Spartaiatoi (Spartans) against a troop of 5000 dismounted Plate mailed knights, my money is STILL going to be on the spartans, as they will simply PUSH the knights over. THey dont Need to stab through plate if the knight cant get up while being stabbed at (they'll hit the face eventually).

-Qes

EDIT: I think i said i agree, but I should say it again here if i didnt.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

We don't need to necessarily make a whole eastern Civ to use some of these exotic weapons. Some of the Civs that haven't been fleshed out yet might fill that role. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[YohanLeafheart]

I would like an unit with a 2m 2-handed sword, that would be beautiful =D

Or and magical weapons. Flamming swords for Hippus maybe, spiked shields for elves, gem encrusted axes for dwarves, etc.

EDIT: Grammar

 

[puck11b]

A bit about the myth of an armoured knight= turtle thing.
It's a, um, myth. A full kit that is correctly shaped to you and well designed is actually fairly mobile. It weighs in at around 80 pounds (35 kilos) and the weight is spread out fairly evenly. Although you can't swim in it (at least I couldn't) you can do sprints and diving rolls in it. Assuming that you can sprint and do a diving roll normally, of course. If your kit is fitted to you well then you will be amazed how much freedom of movement you have. You just can't turn quickly if you are moving forward. Ok it is hard to turn at all if you are moving forward. It's also hard to stop moving forward. Especially on a hill. In mud.

Spoiler :

These are things I do have a little personal experience with : http://paragonjousting.com/profiles/ddowd.shtml

 

[QES]

A bit about the myth of an armoured knight= turtle thing.
It's a, um, myth. A full kit that is correctly shaped to you and well designed is actually fairly mobile. It weighs in at around 80 pounds (35 kilos) and the weight is spread out fairly evenly. Although you can't swim in it (at least I couldn't) you can do sprints and diving rolls in it. Assuming that you can sprint and do a diving roll normally, of course. If your kit is fitted to you well then you will be amazed how much freedom of movement you have. You just can't turn quickly if you are moving forward. Ok it is hard to turn at all if you are moving forward. It's also hard to stop moving forward. Especially on a hill. In mud.

Spoiler :

These are things I do have a little personal experience with : http://paragonjousting.com/profiles/ddowd.shtml

Oh yeah, this is true. I'm thinking about the late period i guess, during which crossbows made their apperance and the armored knight was on his way out. Armor that yes, while mobile, became so heavy that one could not get up again if one fell. The NEAR-turtle apparition of warfare.

Crossbows and longbows mean death to an armored target.
My theory has always been in the paper-rock-scissoring effect of civ, that Archers should be city-holders and anti-melee, Melee should be city takers and generally stronger (more of em), and Cavalry should be anti-archers and fast.

In game terms this is done fairly well, especially with Crossbowman.

-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Are horsemen in FfH immune to first strikes? They ought to be.