what? 4 spies only?

[Minmaster]

actually i think it's a good idea for spies to steal "beakers" just as how great people provide beakers towards a tech later on in game. for spies to steal an entire tech would be too powerful, but for them to steal some beakers, maybe 500-1500 would make sense. just make sure it is costly and is a risky act.

 

[wolfigor]

Civ3 wasnt so bad as far as spies go.

In previous versions of CIV the spys were too overpowered... Now, in CIVIV they have been castrated but they are still useful to gather intelligence on the enemy.

 

[nimbuses]

Actually, I think having more than 4 would unbalance the game.
They are extremely usefull to explore an AI as they move fast, can use enemy's railraod and roads, and so one spy can cover a lot of ground, allowing you to see most of the oponent's configuration.

But they can do nice sabotage of strategical ressources. If you wage war in the modern age (I like it, so I try to keep some oponent computer until then), then the spy in invaluable in removing strategical ressources like oil and aluminium from your oponent making it easier to win the war. For 200 dollar per sabotage it is very usefull to be able to remove all the oil from a nation as it is waging war (and therefore can not build tanks, ships or planes anymore).

If you had more than 4, you could cripple the oponent so bad that the game would be totally unbalanced. Especially since the computer does not seem to be able to send a ton of worker to the newly destroyed oil in order to rebuild it in one turn.

Of course I bet the spy would be less usefull insabotaging a human oponent (but I only play single player... not enough time to commit to a multiplayer game).

Just my 2 cents.

I don't think they do harm AI anyway. OK, spy destroys some stategic resource facility, but AI will rebuild it in two, three turns. If you countine to do it again your spy will be captured soon.

 

[Buffbot]

If i have 8 rivals, how am i suppose to set up a massive intelligence network to gather info on all 8 rivals??

Easiest espionage network comes from founding a religion, then sending missionaries to all the cities you can find before they close the borders. That will allow you to get some insight to a few cities more and help you find targets for your surgical strikes with spies.

I also agree heavily that removing the wells on oil and mines on aluminum will help greatly in slowing the opponents modern military. Spies are a good start for resource exclusion, but having a decent army camping on or next to the denied resource helps more... Just make sure you have all of the resources accounted for!

Spies are exceedingly good when used as effectively as possible. More than 4 would get "IMBA" really fast. 4 in one country can cause plenty of havoc.

 

[ZB2]

4 in one country can cause plenty of havoc.

there you go. done. spies can do alot of damage in one country, if you were fighting on alot of frontiers you wouldnt spread your military, but concentrate it, as with those spies to whipe them out one by one, not take them all on with elite units and watch them be outnumbered and destroyed, whilst your lone spy hops about their core cities looking for Al or Oil.

 

[flytyer]

I also thought spies to be useless until I began using them to destroy oil improvements during a war. This tilted the scale in my favor and I was able to win the war. I agree on limiting the number available for use to 4.

 

[PraetorianSteve]

actually i think it's a good idea for spies to steal "beakers" just as how great people provide beakers towards a tech later on in game. for spies to steal an entire tech would be too powerful, but for them to steal some beakers, maybe 500-1500 would make sense. just make sure it is costly and is a risky act.

I agree, that would be an interesting option, esp. since a lot of espionage revolves around technology (such as the Soviet "interest" in the Manhattan Project).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Here is something interesting to consider: 'Would you like it if it could happen to YOU?' My point is, a lot of people push things like having more spies in the game, and letting them do more damage etc etc, because they wanna be able to do HEAPS of damage to their AI opponents.
However, were these same people to find themselves on the receiving end of these kinds of attacks-from a limitless supply of AI spies-I don't think we would hear the end of their complaints!
That is not to say that large sections of Espionage couldn't be improved (they can IMO), I just think we have to be careful about WHY we want these changes.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Civrules]

Moderator Action: Argument posts deleted.
ZB2 and devilhunterred - there is no point in arguing so... don't. Warned for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[OzzyKP]

Actually you can BUILD only 4 spies, but you can have an unlimited amount. Same with missionaries.


This is applicable only in MP however, but if you build spies and give them to someone else, that person can have an unlimited number, and you can keep building them as long as you don't have 4 in your possession.

Hopefully this will be taken care of in a patch.

 

[binhthuy71]

I've tried Spies twice. They were okay for recon but the cost per attempt for sabotage makes that gambit way too expensive. More so because Spies are available pretty late in the game so there are usually plenty of Workers available to make repairs. Granted, the AI is usually a little slower but, even so, the damage to critical resources is repaired fairly quickly.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

This is exactly my point in regards to spies. Talking about changes to the NUMBER of spies allowed is like putting the cart before the horse. What we should first look at are issues of (a) what can spies currently do? (b) what should they be ABLE to do?, (c) how soon should spies become available and (d) what kind of success rate/cost should their missions carry?

For instance, I believe spies should have the ability to incite military coups (convert military units to barb units of the same kind), incite revolt (make an already unhappy city behave as though it has just been captured), provoke unhappiness (just as it says) and destroy buildings. Each one of these abilities-along with all the current abilities-should require a specific tech to achieve.
Second, I think they should become available earlier in the game, but with an ability to gain experience by performing missions and/or having specific buildings. Early spies would be very limited in what missions they could perform (mostly spying and inciting revolts), but can pick up the other abilities via techs (and older abilities could become easier too).
Third, there needs to be a better means for determining success and cost of missions. Things which should effect costs are the civics choices of your government, the experience of your spy and the size of the city in which the mission is being performed. Success chance should be determined by the civics operated by the target civ, the number of troops which share the spy's square at the time and the experience level of the spy.

Once all of these issues are solved and tested for balance, THEN we ought to look at numbers of spies per civ.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[weasel77066]

I definitely agree that civ3 spies were too powerfull, but I did like the abstract way they were presented. you never had a physical spy unit, only an organization. In a game of epic historical proportions it seems kind of silly to have a spy unit traveling across the countryside slashing crops and peeking in windows. (laugh)
I know it is fun having a unit around that does that, though, and the playability is OK. If this system is not going to change outright, then I agree with Aussies suggestions whole-heartedly. As far as the numbers go? I dont really have a problem with increasing the number to whatever (or even make them unlimited) but with maint costs and a further restriction that each spy unit is nationality based... ie-a persian spy, or a chinese spy that is only good for those civs. Also the number needs to be increased simply because you should probably keep a spy roaaming your cities to catch enemy spy units.
PS-also increase AI use of spies. I had Catherine the foxy russian as a permanent ally once, and she was on another continent. She build scotland yard but never built a spy unit. I built some and gifted them to her and they sat in that same city for the whole game and never moved. Now granted that game was only warlord level in vanilla, but Ive never caught a spy or been sabotaged in any game of any level.. (up to one higher than noble)

 

[Minmaster]

i've been sabotaged plenty in my games. they always end up sabotaging modern strategic resources. its damn annoying when you are on the last turn building a tank and you get a message saying you cant make it no more cuz u got no oil.

thats games monarch and up.