What about getting loads of boats?

Gaba

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
6
Really, every battle won on sea counts as up to 6 in land

right now im getting that rebel feeling started (i think im around 15% rebel), and i tought that if i have a massive naval, it would be quite easy to beat the king on land, once they get there.

So, if anyone tried it, how does it play out?
 
Really, every battle won on sea counts as up to 6 in land

right now im getting that rebel feeling started (i think im around 15% rebel), and i tought that if i have a massive naval, it would be quite easy to beat the king on land, once they get there.

So, if anyone tried it, how does it play out?

If you have the means to produce 3:1 SOLs to Man-o-Wars you wish to destroy, without sacrificing your too many guns that you will need, it is a very viable strategy. The only problem is that it is very hard to get enough resources, not impossible, but extremely hard. If the King has 4-5 ships, and you have 10-15 ships, it is a very viable strategy to simply eliminate his navy.
 
k, i think ill keep my construction site building ships, and use the rest of the guns for the population then


i just tought 100 guns and 100 tools ultimately can lead to 4 soldiers (maybe dragoons) and a ship would be more cost effective
 
You can reduce the number of ships needed, if you promote them using generals. 2 SOLs with veteran II promotion can destroy 1 MOW, odds for first attack will be above 30%, second attack will most likely succeed, so you'll effectively be trading 1 SOL for each MOW. With Simon Bolivar, odds are even better. Another tactic is to use cheap transport ships as a bait. MOWs will attack them and usually also get damaged during the battle, allowing you to finish them off with your SOLs.
 
As other posters have said, you need ~3:1 SOL to MOW to be successful with this. If the REF has 25+ MOW, good luck building/buying that many ships =).
 
Am I correct in assuming ships don't count as population?

In that case, it could be viable to simply build lots of ships, rush to 50% RS, and then sink the king's fleet. You would want to be sure none of the fleet manages to land though.
 
Am I correct in assuming ships don't count as population?

In that case, it could be viable to simply build lots of ships, rush to 50% RS, and then sink the king's fleet. You would want to be sure none of the fleet manages to land though.

In my experience, it isn't possible to not let them land, they will be able to land, you just need to be able to defeat one measly wave, and if this is a viable strategy for your situation, that wave shouldn't be any more than 20 soldiers.
 
just came back from a 100+ turn session

the ship strategy is a very viable one, specially playing the dutch

should you get minuit, you´ll be able to keep trading resources with the natives, getting a load of cash and then just buy yet, ANOTHER ship.

about turn 200+ i was with 7-9 SoL and the king didn´t even started his fleet, i had about the same number of boats as statesman and had about 30-35 colonists, i´m guessing it won´t be a really difficult battle


but i´m just guessing...
 
You don't necessarily need loads of boats. I just finished a Normal paced game on a Large map on the explorer difficulty with Simon Bolivar, won my Independence 1700. Basically, I employed the same basic strategy thats been touted here, getting Peter Minuit, building up until the endgame for the massive LB buildup (my endpoint was once I had 3 Elder Statesmen for all 4 of my large cities). With the pace of my revolution the REF was built up to about 50 units total with 5 MoW. I built up a navy of 4 SoL, with 2 Privateers when the first wave hit. I lucked out on the first wave and one SoL was able to defeat the first MoW but died to a second. I sacrificed my privateers to soften up the other two MoW in that wave and finished them both off with my 3 remaining SoL. Of course had guns and horses stockpiled in wagon trains so the first land wave died within one turn of landing once I mobilized my army.

Second wave landed while my ships were repairing in port, and the remaining 2 MoW were stacked together. I used my promoted SoL with skirmisher to soften the first one, was able to get it down and withdrew. I used a second SoL to attack the other MoW in the stack which despite a 25% chance of winning was able to defeat that MoW. The last MoW I finished off with my last SoL and I had just finished production of a 5th SoL that was enroute to battle.

Couple things with this strat, you have to be really mindful when planning your cities. Two heavy forests per city with lodges/lumberjacks and master carpenters is a must for the productive muscle to build these things. I also had a city with an arsenal and 2 gunsmiths working full time supported by another city with 3 mined hills/expert ore miner with 3 blacksmiths/ironworks pumping out guns. In general during my naval buildup I purchased tools and some guns from Europe. I also bought a few privateers.

If you use your privateers to soften up the MoW, you basically can get away with a 1 to 1 SoL to MoW for naval victory. The REF still had at least half its land forces left but I won Independence by virture of destroying the REF navy. In retrospect I probably could've handled a larger REF navy since I had 2 more SoL in production with plenty of guns to spare, the free Frigate from John Paul Jones was on its way, and I had some cash in Europe to buy another Frigate or Privateer (300 gold shy of another SoL!). In the end it was a little disappointing because I had some veteran SoL waiting for more action on the high seas!
 
You don't necessarily need loads of boats. I just finished a Normal paced game on a Large map on the explorer difficulty with Simon Bolivar, won my Independence 1700. Basically, I employed the same basic strategy thats been touted here, getting Peter Minuit, building up until the endgame for the massive LB buildup (my endpoint was once I had 3 Elder Statesmen for all 4 of my large cities). With the pace of my revolution the REF was built up to about 50 units total with 5 MoW. I built up a navy of 4 SoL, with 2 Privateers when the first wave hit. I lucked out on the first wave and one SoL was able to defeat the first MoW but died to a second. I sacrificed my privateers to soften up the other two MoW in that wave and finished them both off with my 3 remaining SoL. Of course had guns and horses stockpiled in wagon trains so the first land wave died within one turn of landing once I mobilized my army.

Second wave landed while my ships were repairing in port, and the remaining 2 MoW were stacked together. I used my promoted SoL with skirmisher to soften the first one, was able to get it down and withdrew. I used a second SoL to attack the other MoW in the stack which despite a 25% chance of winning was able to defeat that MoW. The last MoW I finished off with my last SoL and I had just finished production of a 5th SoL that was enroute to battle.

Couple things with this strat, you have to be really mindful when planning your cities. Two heavy forests per city with lodges/lumberjacks and master carpenters is a must for the productive muscle to build these things. I also had a city with an arsenal and 2 gunsmiths working full time supported by another city with 3 mined hills/expert ore miner with 3 blacksmiths/ironworks pumping out guns. In general during my naval buildup I purchased tools and some guns from Europe. I also bought a few privateers.

If you use your privateers to soften up the MoW, you basically can get away with a 1 to 1 SoL to MoW for naval victory. The REF still had at least half its land forces left but I won Independence by virture of destroying the REF navy. In retrospect I probably could've handled a larger REF navy since I had 2 more SoL in production with plenty of guns to spare, the free Frigate from John Paul Jones was on its way, and I had some cash in Europe to buy another Frigate or Privateer (300 gold shy of another SoL!). In the end it was a little disappointing because I had some veteran SoL waiting for more action on the high seas!

On Simon Bolivar, you can do it because of the extra rebel strength bonuses. On the other ones, you can't get above a 10% chance of victory against an undamaged MoW.
 
I would just like to point out that generally, building Ships of the line is pretty uneconomic unless you buy the tools in europe as compared to simply using your colonists to make manufactured goods such as cigars or rum and using the earnings to buy ships in europe(coupled with Peter Minuit). Exceptions being if your tax rate is really high or if you have some really good founding fathers(doubly so if they're based on the tax rate) for hammers and/or guns.

300 tools, 300 muskets and 400 hammers is an extreme amount of resources and work hours.

Here's some quick math: to produce 300 muskets you need 200 tools(assuming you have an arsenal) which in turn requires 133 ore which in turn is roughly 13 worker turns of expert ore miners(depending on how good your tiles are) added to 12 turns of master blacksmith worker turns and then 200/12~17 worker turns of expert gunsmiths=42 worker turns for 300 muskets.

To produce 300 tools you need 200 ore which is rougly 20 worker turns in ore miners added to 17 worker turns of expert blacksmiths= 37 worker turns for 300 tools.

For 400 hammers you need 400 lumber which is 25 worker turns of expert lumberjacks(riverside forest with lodges) and 33 worker turns of expert carpenters = 58 worker turns for 400 hammers.

This in total adds up to 137 worker turns for a single ship of the line which means it will take 137 colonists(all experts in their respective professions) to produce on average one ship of the line per turn or 1 colonist(against, being expert in all needed professions) 137 turns to make one ship of the line.

Let's use the worst possible case scenario where you have no river and no special resources(but peter minuit, which you should always get for obvious reasons) to calculate how much cigars/furs/rum etc you would get. Lets assume a 4 base tile(farmed grassland) with an expert on it yielding 8 tobacco per turn. That would require 3 planters per 2 master tobacconists letting us gain 54 worker turns of cigars in the time it would take us to get one ship of the line. That equates to 986 cigars.

Assuming a selling price of 9 per cigar thats 8874 gold. As long as your tax rate was lower than roughly 33% you would actually get more ships of the line per turn using tobacconists and tobacco planters than using ore miners, lumberjacks, blacksmiths, gunsmiths and carpenters.

I have neglected to count rebel sentiment since it should make no difference(it would take less turns to complete a ship but all at the same time you would get more cigars in a shorter amount of time to balance it out).

The only thing that really changes this is if you have founding fathers that add to production of for example guns or hammers(or you have declared independence and have theocracy) but even then the only founding fathers that I can remember off the top of my head that gives bonuses to any of these professions are tied to your tax rate(which just means that it becomes profitable at a lower tax rate).

Obviously, the fact that you can use gold for other things than ships of the line means that simply making cigars/rum/coats/cloth in the first place is that much more versatile in that you can buy whatever you want.

Obviously, if you make such extreme amounts of money that the king will start increasing your tax rate to the point where its no longer useful to trade then producing your own ships of the line will probably look better but I'm doubtful as to whether you can actually get a large enough production line going without having to use the "kill your population" exploit in order to keep bell generation needed low enough that your ships are actually worth anything.

All in all, ships are expensive. It probably *works*, but is it optimal? I doubt it.
 
I would just like to point out that generally, building Ships of the line is pretty uneconomic unless you buy the tools in europe as compared to simply using your colonists to make manufactured goods such as cigars or rum and using the earnings to buy ships in europe(coupled with Peter Minuit). Exceptions being if your tax rate is really high or if you have some really good founding fathers(doubly so if they're based on the tax rate) for hammers and/or guns.

300 tools, 300 muskets and 400 hammers is an extreme amount of resources and work hours.

Here's some quick math: to produce 300 muskets you need 200 tools(assuming you have an arsenal) which in turn requires 133 ore which in turn is roughly 13 worker turns of expert ore miners(depending on how good your tiles are) added to 12 turns of master blacksmith worker turns and then 200/12~17 worker turns of expert gunsmiths=42 worker turns for 300 muskets.

To produce 300 tools you need 200 ore which is rougly 20 worker turns in ore miners added to 17 worker turns of expert blacksmiths= 37 worker turns for 300 tools.

For 400 hammers you need 400 lumber which is 25 worker turns of expert lumberjacks(riverside forest with lodges) and 33 worker turns of expert carpenters = 58 worker turns for 400 hammers.

This in total adds up to 137 worker turns for a single ship of the line which means it will take 137 colonists(all experts in their respective professions) to produce on average one ship of the line per turn or 1 colonist(against, being expert in all needed professions) 137 turns to make one ship of the line.

Let's use the worst possible case scenario where you have no river and no special resources(but peter minuit, which you should always get for obvious reasons) to calculate how much cigars/furs/rum etc you would get. Lets assume a 4 base tile(farmed grassland) with an expert on it yielding 8 tobacco per turn. That would require 3 planters per 2 master tobacconists letting us gain 54 worker turns of cigars in the time it would take us to get one ship of the line. That equates to 986 cigars.

Assuming a selling price of 9 per cigar thats 8874 gold. As long as your tax rate was lower than roughly 33% you would actually get more ships of the line per turn using tobacconists and tobacco planters than using ore miners, lumberjacks, blacksmiths, gunsmiths and carpenters.

I have neglected to count rebel sentiment since it should make no difference(it would take less turns to complete a ship but all at the same time you would get more cigars in a shorter amount of time to balance it out).

The only thing that really changes this is if you have founding fathers that add to production of for example guns or hammers(or you have declared independence and have theocracy) but even then the only founding fathers that I can remember off the top of my head that gives bonuses to any of these professions are tied to your tax rate(which just means that it becomes profitable at a lower tax rate).

Obviously, the fact that you can use gold for other things than ships of the line means that simply making cigars/rum/coats/cloth in the first place is that much more versatile in that you can buy whatever you want.

Obviously, if you make such extreme amounts of money that the king will start increasing your tax rate to the point where its no longer useful to trade then producing your own ships of the line will probably look better but I'm doubtful as to whether you can actually get a large enough production line going without having to use the "kill your population" exploit in order to keep bell generation needed low enough that your ships are actually worth anything.

All in all, ships are expensive. It probably *works*, but is it optimal? I doubt it.

You can produce both cigars, and SoLs at the same time. I always have one food city providing rapid growth, one tool city, one gun city (which also produces its own tools for gun production), one city producing a good I can trade in Europe (this time it is rum), and one producing just shields to make SoLs, or cannons if I am going with the land strat.
 
Top Bottom