What am I doing wrong?

AntaranDream

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
28
Location
Austin, TX
Ok so I've had something like 5-6 games in a row where I get pwned by the barbs. I start out building warriors till I have 4 and then I build a settler and take it and 2 warriors out to settle in a good spot which if I'm lucky is located by my scout before he dies horribly to random animals (if I'm lucky, if I'm not lucky he dies having spawned super barbs from a barrow which then occasionally go on to smash my civ), then on route sometimes a warrior dies to a random barb sometimes the entire stack gets killed because it doesn't seem to matter if I put the stack on a hill with trees they still get killed most of the time. I rinse and repeat building cities with 2 warriors in them untill I'm at 60% science then I stop to build my economy, which I usually can't do because the barbs show up all of the time and pillage my improvements which I can't prevent them from doing because warriors fail at anything but city defense. At this I've usually met a couple of civs and they're doing much better than me (score-wise) and I quit out of frustration with the barbs.

EDIT: playing on noble difficulty
 
Two warriors guarding a city aint gonna cut it against barbarians. You need to determine which direction they are coming from and seed that direction with fortified warriors on forested hills. You need to put them far enough away from the city that the barbarians will attack those units and not just beeline for the city. As these units gain promotions I move them further out to the locations where I plan to plant a city, and they eventually become those cities' defender. The reason for having these units out there is to prevent barbarians from spawning from the fog of war. This is especially important for the direction you plan to expand. Always, always, always have units sitting on hills/towers to defog a decent area. There should be no reason your settler stack should even be attacked if you are vigilant about this.

Early game don't explore ruins or try to destroy barrows and such. Just toss a warrior on top and let it sit there to prevent more units from respawning if you can't handle them. Once you have secured the area, acquired access to copper and better units, then pull your warrior off and use the barrow for free xp for new units.
 
Two warriors per city is easily enough on Noble (w/out raging barbs) unless Orthus or Mokka turns up. Don't waste time building more.

I'll second the barrow exploration advice. Don't explore lairs near your borders before you have the means to deal with any nasties it might spawn . You'll want at least a few axemen before you even consider doing this. (On the other hand, exploring lairs near your opponents' borders with the intent to pop nasties is a neat exploit and a good way to eliminate someone early.)

Don't worry too much about blocking off lairs from spawning. You can use them to farm experience for your warriors. Let lizardmen and goblins suicide themselves against your cities (they can't pillage, so nothing to worry about there) - fortified warriors should have no trouble beating them. Once you have some combat promotions on your warriors, you should have no problem taking out skeletons and barb warriors in the field. If you don't have any promotions, deal with barb melee units by putting your warriors on forests, hills, or a across rivers so they attack you at unfavourable odds. Have other warriors clear up if your initial warrior gets defeated (roads help a lot here).

With settler stacks and other units venturing further from your cities, avoid spiders, bears and hill giants like the plague - you can't deal with them yet, and if there's one near your intended city site, settle somewhere else. You're right to try and move your warriors on forests/hills where possible, as that should be enough to let you defeat most common barbs (goblins, skeletons, warriors). Only lizardmen are really a problem. If you lose one warrior and the unit that destroyed it isn't damaged enough to be easily killed, retreat immediately as the last thing you want to do is lose your settler.

Finally, if you really get overrun (a whole bunch spawn at once, as they sometimes do, or someone casts Samhain and you're surrounded by wolf riders), hole up in your capital for a few turns. It's better to delay your second city a short while than risk losing the settler and the up-side is that you should get some handy promotions on your warriors.

That turned into quite a long ramble. I think the golden rule, though, is that, yes, warriors suck at anything but city defence unless they have promotions. Once you have one, it's usually easy to get more. A combat III warrior will eat barbs for breakfast.
 
Also don't discount the power of the warrior rush. My second city is almost always a conquered one. If there is another civ too near or a nice barb city, 8-10 warriors will take it easy and I can almost always get that many before happy cap. It can hurt research but often it is the best option.
 
In my experience early scouts die, quickly and unconditionally. Resign yourself to that fact and consider anything the starting scout does a free bonus.

It is possible to scout early, but it's difficult and relies partly on luck. I consider it an advanced strategy. As a substitute you can move your starting settler around for a few turns, it's fast and can see far.

Speaking of settling, the most important early resource is commerce, :commerce:. (Food and production are also the most important early resources, but slightly less most important than commerce. ;) ) Seriously, :commerce: can solve :food: and :hammers: shortages, :food: and :hammers: are much less efficient at providing :commerce: during the early game.

Early game the capital provides about 8 :commerce: (palace) + 1 :commerce: (city square) + 3ish :commerce: (population working rivers, unimproved :commerce: resources) = 12ish :commerce:.

Compare that to a new city, which will be producing maybe 4 :commerce:, if you're lucky. It will also bump up civic costs and maintenance, possibly army costs. They also cost oodles of :hammers:, and stop your city from growing which in turn costs population-turns working :commerce:-tiles.

Until you can start improving the surroundings, new cities don't add a lot of value.

So build a worker or two and start improving the surroundings, worry less about founding cities.

The first research objectives are whatever tech unlocks the improvements for nearby commerce resources. Roads are also a great boon to early defence.

The second research priority is :commerce: without needing resources; that means specialists or cottages. I don't have the energy for a specialist economy, so I don't have any advice on that.

The third research priority is happy cap boosters.

The fourth research priority is military advances. Warriors last a long time, mostly because they are so cheap. Quantity can substitute for quality in the early game. And by training on barbarians, quality (promotions) can substitute for quality (high tech units).

Note that I said priority, not beeline. Depending on the specifics, lower priority targets can be acquired earlier. For instance, I understand specialist economies can easily go for an early religion, that provides a military unit, happy cap and possibly gold from a shrine. If you need copper and can research it quickly enough, you don't have to hit Education before Bronze Working.

The best place to place your early defenders is on a forested plains or grassland hilltop 2 to 3 tiles away from the capital, surrounded by desert. All squares are also covered with roads. This would allow you to attack passing units, in the desert with attending defence malus, and move back to the forest-hill in one turn. Always keep at least one fortified unit on the forest-hill, and if the position is about to be overrun, retreat.

That's a dream scenario though, but parts of the ideal defence can usually be found. I suppose Malakim have an easier time, due to their affinity for desert. Use workers to shape the terrain, cut down forests unless you are going to sit in them. This goes double for forests next to your cities.

A good defence is an aggressive defence. There is no need to escort settlers or workers if your army is already pacifying the area. There is an old thread in this forum that describes the basics.

Remember, the penalty for over-defending against barbarians is a large army useful for attacking your neighbour. Try playing as normal, but add a single expendable warrior to each stack. Be prepared to sacrifice that warrior at the drop of a hat.

When Orthus spawns, look at the Orthus-GPS. If he's nearby, gather a stack of about eight warriors and go Orthus hunting.
 
I accompany my Settler with 4 Warriors. If all goes well, I can move one back to my capital once the city has been founded, leaving 3 to defend.

Of course, I also play very much like odalrick, having farms and mines up before spamming Warriors and Settlers. Commerce is important, but I focus my capital on food/commerce in the beginning, shifting it to commerce later if the land is better suited to that.

If you can settle your first city next to Gold or Gems and a few hills, do so. You'll gain the benefit of a high production city with enough commerce to give you an advantage.
 
The obvious answer noone mentioned here is, if you are having problems on Noble then back down to Warlord or Chieftain. There is no shame at it, especially while learning a new game, I recently moved up from Warlord to Noble and have issues still myself.

Other options include making a custom game and sticking one of the AIs on your team. (can't do that after the game starts)

ALSO if you are playing single player, then have fun. Save before exploring a burrow and reload if you don't like the results. If you REALLY need to, Go into the world builder and add a Great Person to your capital.

I don't encourage cheating, but lets face it, no one is hurt by you doing it and it may help you learn the game well enough to get to the point you don't need to do it anymore. just remember if you are cheating don't come to the forums and suggest changes to the game because now it is too easy. :)
 
I have spent the last 2 months learning the basics of the game and my best friends are worlbuilder and reloads. Worldbuilder especially is a great learning tool.

This is a big, complicated game with a lot of variables. There does not seem to be any best strategy and the paths to victory are manifold.

In any case AD, the advice given in this thread so far is great. Odalrick mentioned a few things I am going to try in my next game. Hunting Orthus sounds like awesome fun.
 
I remember on another thread, if he spawns near you, you can have one sacrificial warrior sit on a tile with no defensive bonus, and it'll goad Othus to attack it. Then your other warriors sitting in wait take him down. Been working for me pretty well.
 
As has been said, getting new cities up to speed is expensive. Maintenance costs, military to defend it, to defend the workers working it, hooking it up with your capital, and of course all that time spent fiddling around with its economy gets tiresome. And laying siege to a fortified city... that is also expensive.

In a recent game, playing Decius of Bannor, I was attacked very early in the game by Amelanchier, and the war had us both pushed to the bottom of the score list :/ But then I managed to get my hands on the horse-riding tech, and turned the tables on him. Purely by accident, I found that it was pretty handy to not bother conquering his place.

Rather, every time I got a new cadre of horsemen out the door, I'd sweep them through ol' Amy's place for some pillaging, some :gold:, maybe some free xp, a little slap and tickle, then on to the guys I'm really at war with. Once I got lucky; Sheaim smelled blood and attacked Amelanchier, with her army pinned up against his walls I had all of my horsemen come in from afar for hit-and-runs, her siege failed and I got tons of promotions out of the deal :D
 
I'm surprised nobody answered with this, but play as the Clan of Embers or Doviello. That will clear your problems with barbs right up.
 
Ok so I've had something like 5-6 games in a row where I get pwned by the barbs. I start out building warriors till I have 4 and then I build a settler and take it and 2 warriors out to settle in a good spot which if I'm lucky is located by my scout before he dies horribly to random animals (if I'm lucky, if I'm not lucky he dies having spawned super barbs from a barrow which then occasionally go on to smash my civ), then on route sometimes a warrior dies to a random barb sometimes the entire stack gets killed because it doesn't seem to matter if I put the stack on a hill with trees they still get killed most of the time. I rinse and repeat building cities with 2 warriors in them untill I'm at 60% science then I stop to build my economy, which I usually can't do because the barbs show up all of the time and pillage my improvements which I can't prevent them from doing because warriors fail at anything but city defense. At this I've usually met a couple of civs and they're doing much better than me (score-wise) and I quit out of frustration with the barbs.

EDIT: playing on noble difficulty
@AntaranDream: I can't say for certain what, if anything, you're doing wrong. You describe what used to happen to me on Immortal, and what occasionally happens on Deity.

I usually play Deity level, Pangaea maps, and Raging Barbs - which usually require lots of defenders right away, usually more than 3 warriors per city at the start. By the time my first Settler is built, I've 3 Warriors to escort it while leaving 3 Warriors at the capitol for defense. Even then, it's often a close thing. I don't count on taking enemy cities early in games - especially not as my second city - but that's due to the big maps and Deity level. I'd have to march too far and fight an enemy who has more troops and more cities than me from turn one. Not a good gamble.

Barrows are very dangerous early on; I avoid them until later as the risk outweighs the reward. My scouts are for exploration and goody huts, not for stirring up trouble.

Barbarians will pillage your early improvements. I've found that I can't stop that so, frankly, I will wait before building many improvements if I can't guarantee them relative protection. Again, depends on Difficulty Level and map type. I'll build plenty of workers early on a safer map or lower level.

Don't give up too soon. Raging Barbarians can become the XP farm for your troops as they suicide against your cities. After awhile your veteran Warriors will be able to attack the barbs in the field.

It does happen though that sometimes your starting position is just too close to an enemy civ(s) or can be attacked too easily from any direction. Sometimes the barbs appear too soon and with too many men. Sometimes you just don't get the resources or defensive terrain bonuses you need.

In those cases, maybe nothing you're doing is wrong, in itself, but of no use when Orthus appears next door. I'm not convinced you're doing anything wrong. Maybe experiencing a lower level would help or trying a different map or different civ. Maybe playing on in a difficult situation would show you've more chances than you thought or at least show you were right all along.
 
Try to play on a map that has a decent amount of water, because if you end up in the south or north near frozen wasteland, that is the barbarian swarm haven. Try to find a good choke point that you can defend and predict where the barbarians will be coming from. Once you have a good defensive position preferably in a forest on a hill you can level your army fast and use them to crush your enemies.
 
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