What are your thoughts on a classical dark age?

[Mesix]

I have read several posts where people suggest it is a good idea to limit activity in the Ancient Era so that you force a dark age in the Classical Era. The idea is that this will seed a heroic age for the Medieval Era. This is apparently a popular strategy in R&F because the GOTM asks the question in the AAR posts whether you got a dark age and which dark age policy cards you used. The heroic age will net you 3x golden age bonuses for the next era.

My question is what people think about this.

Do you force a dark age and why?

If not, what is your strategy for the first 3 eras of the game (I assume you then try for a golden age in both the classical and medieval eras).

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Victoria has a good post on the subject here... (Post #5)

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...al-age-by-classical-era.629334/#post-15156561

Victoria Quotes in that Post:

"In essence you are sacrificing a very strong (probably strongest) golden age era for a dark where when you come out the other end you are likely to get good bonuses but nothing blinding apart form monumentality which you can get with a double golden. I am finding the classic golden so strong that a medieval golden is hard to avoid and the two together speed up your game a lot."

"Its only when you feel this you realise the heroic is probably not worth it unless you are going for a long game in which case it may be better."

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The way I understand it is that two Golden Ages back to back are far superior in most cases if not all.
Dark Ages could be extremely dangerous.
Classical Golden Age just helps you speed everything along.
If you have Harvest you are going to be able to Faith buy Settlers and Builders with ease.
You could literally double or triple your empire with that Golden Age and Faith Buying.

Many times I get 23/24 Era Score and it upsets me a bunch.
This is because I rarely go Sailing and build a Galley which is something I need to start focusing on if I can get a coastal city.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I had a recent game with England where I had a classical dark age followed by a heroic medeval which worked very well but I was isolated which makes coping with a dark age much easier.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I had a recent game with England where I had a classical dark age followed by a heroic medeval which worked very well but I was isolated which makes coping with a dark age much easier.

As stated before that a Heroic Age might be best in a Long Game.
However, Back to Back Golden Ages beats a deliberate Dark Age to slingshot into a Heroic Age every time most likely.
I wouldn't doubt that a Normal Age into a Golden Age is better than a Dark Age into a Heroic Age.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I don't really see why classical Golden Ages are that great.

One of them only applies to religion, and another requires good faith generation. Free Inquiry.... how many districts will you have to take advantage of that? The only consistent one is +1 culture per district.

With a Dark Age, you can take Twilight Valor and use it to fight or even take Monasticism. Loyalty from dead civs don't matter. I mean, I suppose if you had the oppurtunity for a Golden Age, go for it, but as the other thread kinda shows to me, it seems to come down to "get really lucky" and isn't really a decision to begin with. I suppose it coming down actually to normal vs dark age, being the actual choice that matters.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I don't really see why classical Golden Ages are that great.

One of them only applies to religion, and another requires good faith generation. Free Inquiry.... how many districts will you have to take advantage of that? The only consistent one is +1 culture per district.

With a Dark Age, you can take Twilight Valor and use it to fight or even take Monasticism. Loyalty from dead civs don't matter. I mean, I suppose if you had the oppurtunity for a Golden Age, go for it, but as the other thread kinda shows to me, it seems to come down to "get really lucky" and isn't really a decision to begin with. I suppose it coming down actually to normal vs dark age, being the actual choice that matters.

The difference isn't even close if you have a Classical Golden Age with say Harvest and Monumentality.
Chop your way into free builders, settlers, trade routes and most likely some other goodies.
Just the fact that your builders can move faster and improve on the same turn is kinda a big deal.
Not to mention when you do warmonger with that Classical Golden Age you slice through the enemy like butter.
Combine the two Golden Ages together and it gets even better compared to a Dark into a Heroic or Normal into a Golden Age.
Again, the point is that back to back Golden Ages are far superior compared to throwing yourself into a Dark Age so you can go Heroic.

I haven't figured out how to get that Classical Golden Age with ease but when I do it is a major difference compared to a Dark or Normal Age.
I tend to constantly fall short at 22 or 23 era points instead of the required 24.
This doesn't mean smarter players aren't able to do it every single time on Pangaea Maps.
The way I understand it is they do struggle on Continent Map types and other Maps for that matter.
However I find any map other than Pangaea guarantees a win.
Of course how fast you win will separate the better players.
The best games or fastest win times always have back to back Golden Ages.
I have never read of anyone winning some super fast game with a Classical Dark Age.
Of course I could be wrong.

Edit: I just played a game testing if I can get harvest or not and I was Cyrus.
I ended up getting harvest on turn 25 and decided to play it out a bit.
I only had two cities but I did have double horses.
Not sure if I need them with Persia though.
Anyways I didn't do so well but I did get Classical and Medieval Golden Ages.
The game just got out of hand. I had 18 cities by turn 100 with two settlers getting ready to settle.
I knocked out two Civs heading to a third.
Constantly Faith Buying Settlers and Builders.
I couldn't even keep up with the snowball that happens from that Classical Golden Age.
Transition into another Golden Age for a back to back and it gets pretty silly.
The AI got to a point where they were pulling 30 SPT as the top leader.
I was at something like 150 SPT.
I wasn't even doing it very good and it was OP
Better players would of finished with the Domination Victory around 110 or so maybe sooner.
I tend to do poorly not working on enough Army or splitting them up.
To make matters worse I was wiping them off the map so that takes more time.
I had 32 cities on turn 125 and just saved the game because I lost interest.

My point is that Classical Golden Age with Harvest is far superior to throwing yourself into a Dark Age.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The difference isn't even close if you have a Classical Golden Age with say Harvest and Monumentality.
Chop your way into free builders, settlers, trade routes and most likely some other goodies.
Just the fact that your builders can move faster and improve on the same turn is kinda a big deal.
Not to mention when you do warmonger with that Classical Golden Age you slice through the enemy like butter.
Combine the two Golden Ages together and it gets even better compared to a Dark into a Heroic or Normal into a Golden Age.
Again, the point is that back to back Golden Ages are far superior compared to throwing yourself into a Dark Age so you can go Heroic.

I haven't figured out how to get that Classical Golden Age with ease but when I do it is a major difference compared to a Dark or Normal Age.
I tend to constantly fall short at 22 or 23 era points instead of the required 24.
This doesn't mean smarter players aren't able to do it every single time on Pangaea Maps.
The way I understand it is they do struggle on Continent Map types and other Maps for that matter.
However I find any map other than Pangaea guarantees a win.
Of course how fast you win will separate the better players.
The best games or fastest win times always have back to back Golden Ages.
I have never read of anyone winning some super fast game with a Classical Dark Age.
Of course I could be wrong.

Edit: I just played a game testing if I can get harvest or not and I was Cyrus.
I ended up getting harvest on turn 25 and decided to play it out a bit.
I only had two cities but I did have double horses.
Not sure if I need them with Persia though.
Anyways I didn't do so well but I did get Classical and Medieval Golden Ages.
The game just got out of hand. I had 18 cities by turn 100 with two settlers getting ready to settle.
I knocked out two Civs heading to a third.
Constantly Faith Buying Settlers and Builders.
I couldn't even keep up with the snowball that happens from that Classical Golden Age.
Transition into another Golden Age for a back to back and it gets pretty silly.
The AI got to a point where they were pulling 30 SPT as the top leader.
I was at something like 150 SPT.
I wasn't even doing it very good and it was OP
Better players would of finished with the Domination Victory around 110 or so maybe sooner.
I tend to do poorly not working on enough Army or splitting them up.
To make matters worse I was wiping them off the map so that takes more time.
I had 32 cities on turn 125 and just saved the game because I lost interest.

My point is that Classical Golden Age with Harvest is far superior to throwing yourself into a Dark Age.

Getting Harvest is far from certain though especially if you play on larger maps with more opponents. Classical is too early to have much in the way of faith producing infrastructure set up and Golden Age Monumentality is a lot less impressive if you don't have steady faith generation. I've never deliberately gone for a Dark Age but I haven't found them much of a handicap when I've had them and if you are in one then taking Monumentality should ensure you are able to get a Heroic Medieval Age easily enough.

 

[Archon_Wing]

he difference isn't even close if you have a Classical Golden Age with say Harvest and Monumentality.
Chop your way into free builders, settlers, trade routes and most likely some other goodies.
Just the fact that your builders can move faster and improve on the same turn is kinda a big deal.

I mean, if you get harvest, sure a Golden Age is nice, but at this point the game's basically handed to you, and any strategic talk is not interesting because these aren't really choices. Movement speed is great, but then again if you're spamming builders pre-feudalism, it's going to have bad long term effects.

Again, the point is that back to back Golden Ages are far superior compared to throwing yourself into a Dark Age so you can go Heroic.

I gather that, but I think there is some sense in saying that a Dark Age is easier to get, while a Golden Age isn't. That's its own opportunity cost.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I agree that your settings will change things tremendously.
I play over 90% of my games with the same settings.
Deity, Pangaea Map, Standard, Standard. Usually all Random Civs including my own.

I notice that I tend to get the Classical Golden Age when I open with double scout.
Double Scout Openings might not be the best choice but it feels easier to get 24 Era points with that opening.
I notice the pro players tend to forward settle the AI for the Era Points and they don't seem to go double scout.
The way I understand it is that builder, settler is superior if you can pull it off without getting rolled.

I notice that the best way to win a war is to Fortify your units and let the AI crash into them.
After I started to do that my chances of getting rolled decreased.

 

[chazzycat]

For me the plan hinges entirely on whether I'm going for faith or not.

With strong faith output, a classical golden age can be quite good (monumentality) so I'll go for it in that situation.

Without that, I prefer to target a medieval golden age. This gives me time to get up some CH/harbor and go for free inquiry golden age instead. In that case, a classical dark age is fine, maybe even ideal - but I won't do it on purpose. I won't sacrifice scouting just for that. Nope. I need to know the lay of the land to formulate my longer term strategy.

 

[GeorgeF]

Medieval golden free inquiry is another game breaker if you are able to get even one good harbor/CH location with Reyna. If you can get to the 100% CH or 100% harbor card the amount of science you can pull in with one city is amazing. And this doesn't require Harvest to exploit.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Medieval golden free inquiry is another game breaker if you are able to get even one good harbor/CH location with Reyna. If you can get to the 100% CH or 100% harbor card the amount of science you can pull in with one city is amazing. And this doesn't require Harvest to exploit.

Thanks to you and chazzycat for the added information!
This is a strategy I haven't tried at all but will be on the look out when the situation arises.
What do you take in the Classical Age as your choice if it is Normal or Dark?

Since this is new to me, you get a Medieval Golden Age and take Free Inquiry right?
Next you have a city with a Harbor and CH both or just one??
Use Reyna in that city and get to the 100% bonus cards?
How many points do you put into Reyna?

 

[GeorgeF]

City with both CH and HD, CH next to river, harbor, and city center is +5 base, +10 with Reyna. Harbor with 2 coastal resources, next to harbor and city center is another +5/+10 with Reyna. Thats 20 science with Reyna and one promotion in a Medieval Golden Age Free Inquiry. Add an additional 100% on this and it gets silly, along with all the gold this nets you. Free Inquiry gets this bonus only in Medieval Golden, so you have only one shot at it.

Its hard to get this as well as all the way to Naval Tradition or Guilds at the start of medieval, but by mid-medieval you can get to one or the other.

 

[chazzycat]

One city + Reyna is good. More cities with more (good adjacency) harbors or CH is even better. You can really push it quite far TBH.

Its hard to get this as well as all the way to Naval Tradition or Guilds at the start of medieval, but by mid-medieval you can get to one or the other.

Naval tradition is actually pretty easy to reach, much more so than Guilds. It's on the feudalism path so should come pretty early. Just remember to build a quadrireme and kill something (you should do that anyways if you're going naval, to later upgrade to frigates).

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I have been testing games to see how often I can obtain Harvest.
Deity, Pangaea Map, Standard, Standard, Random Civs.
I have been steadily getting it 70% of the time.
I have also been trying to work on my Domination Victory Time.
I am also trying to get over 20 cities by turn 100.
This game I had 18 at that mark and around 50 when I finished.

I got up harvest on this attempt with Persia on turn 25.
I started with a double scout opening.
I was able to get up 3 cities and stay friendly enough with Poundmaker who was a huge threat.
His Warriors were dancing all over my lands and he could of easily took one of my Expos.
Instead he never Dowed me and I was able to get the Classical Golden Age with Harvest.
Got Immortals and Horses and rolled him pretty quick.
I should of been able to get this victory much faster.
I ended up getting a bit lost in what I was doing the last 30 turns.
However, this was my fastest turn victory for Civ VI at 151 turns.
I have played this game for decades not caring about turn time but starting to get the hang of finishing faster.
I guess my point is that Harvest with that Classical Golden Age is pretty strong.
Snowball it into all Golden Ages and it breaks the game.

 

[myclan]

I find myself sometimus just fall into dark age in classical age even I don't want to. Especially there is a barbarian camp near and start spawning unit before you can defeat it. What's worse the camp is in your backyard so only you can deal with them. Finally you defeat the camp and it's already the end of an ancient age the you fall dark.
Natural Wonder and tribal village are uncontrollable. Without early uu and ub the most reliable way to get Era point is defeating a camp, which is also more or less luck basing.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I find myself sometimus just fall into dark age in classical age even I don't want to. Especially there is a barbarian camp near and start spawning unit before you can defeat it. What's worse the camp is in your backyard so only you can deal with them. Finally you defeat the camp and it's already the end of an ancient age the you fall dark.
Natural Wonder and tribal village are uncontrollable. Without early uu and ub the most reliable way to get Era point is defeating a camp, which is also more or less luck basing.

I agree.
Some games where I have multiple Barb Camps and multiple AI boxing me in by turn 8 I almost always fall into a Dark Age.
Some games it appears that nothing can be done about such problems.
The debate is more so about deliberately throwing yourself into a Dark Age to gain the Heroic Age.
Which is better... going Dark to get a Heroic or getting a Double Golden Age.

On my Germany game today I actually had 4 scouts.
I didn't get even close to enough Era Points for a Classical Golden Age.
I did get up Harvest though.
I have about 400 Faith banked when the Normal Age rolled around.
It is a completely different game being in that Normal Age with Harvest compared to having that Classical Golden Age.
Everything is going much slower. I have a good amount of open land to settle which would be perfect if I was in a Golden Age.
I really notice a difference between the two.
I plan to just bank the faith up and use it in the Medieval Age. Hopefully I will be in a Golden Age at that time.

 

[chazzycat]

Even when you are surrounded, if you go scout first, that scout should be able to get around your neighbor before borders close or borders expand and close off that way.

On pangea this is important if you want a classical golden age - making contact with all civs in the game first grants a hefty 5 era points which should really help. Even if you are slow you still get +3 which is worth pursuing.

Continents and island maps can be tougher but there are still some creative ways to get era points

Even if I plan to play peaceful and aren't in any danger from AI, I'll still build an early military (3 slingers --> archers minimum) just to deal with barb camps because +3 is quite good and you should get a few. I use my starting warrior to prevent their scouts from seeing my city, I don't send him off scouting. It's important not to get bogged down in fighting lots of barbs because you won't have time to clear as many camps.

Generally, it's very helpful to memorize the list of era score sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/7w5m3a/ways_to_gain_era_score/

Some of them are easy to forget. Building an early ship for example will get +2 or +3 points. Settling cities is another way to get a few era points that's easy to forget. You can get points by forward settling AI, building on another continent, settling in desert/tundra, and near natural wonders. Some of these are usually doable - don't forget to check the continents screen, that one is worth +2. In theory, you could get up to 6 points just for settling 1 city (though that perfect situation is rare of course).

Going religion is hugely helpful...you get points for the great person, the pantheon, founding the religion, and hopefully the high-adjacency holy site. Even if you're slow and no adjacency bonus, that's minimum 4 points. If you're first in everything and get the adjacency bonus on the holy site, it's up to 9 points. This ties nicely into my previous comment where I said a classical golden age is much more desirable with strong faith output.

Back to the original question, I still don't think its wise to intentionally trigger a dark age. Really the only way to do that is to not scout. Not scouting for an entire era is just a risky play, with the payoff being of questionable value. It's really the FIRST dedication that's critical (for monumentality or free inquiry). Compared to that, the extra two dedications you get from a heroic classical era are of marginal value.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

One question that I have from reading about early religion chazzycat?
I notice many players say not to found your religion in the Ancient Era!?
I am not sure of all the reasons why they advise to delay this but if you do delay you will not get those Era Points!?
You will get them in the next Era though but I notice some players say to use the Prophet to Scout with.
This makes sense if you are going to get a Golden Age anyways but if you need those Era Points I will sacrifice the prophet to get the Golden Age rather than not get it.
{ See what I did there with Sacrifice and Prophet }
Many times I am inland and cant get the galley score but I guess I could dedicate time going sailing and build a galley in the lake.
I never do this but I can see how you can get the Era Score and get the 100% Production Bonus Chops.
It is a race for sure. Better players have a higher rate of All Golden Ages but I find myself still struggling to get it consistently.
Thanks for the link to that list again as it does help to read over it again and again.

In my recent Germany Game I actually have four scouts.
I was able to steal one settler from Korea which is huge but I was late a few times to Barb Camps which hurts.
Sometimes I still struggle on Pangaea to find all Civs before the Era Age Ends.
I just need to keep working at it. Probably not scouting in a direct line enough.
One thing is for sure that Victoria posted about...
I agree with her that when you get that Classical Golden Age it is massive a massive slingshot forward in my games.
Especially when I have Harvest and Monumentality.

 

[chazzycat]

The main reason for delaying a religion is to wait for holy sites in more cities, because those cities will get your religion automatically, so you don't have to spend on missionaries. Personally I don't feel this is super important, because you're missing out on natural spread that way and missionaries aren't really expensive.

Another reason would be if you already have enough era score, it may make more sense to get those era points in the next era instead.

Founding the religion is only 2 points, so that's not the critical part. It's actually more important to get a good adjacency holy site. You get the +2 from pantheon & great prophet too. But my point was mainly that pursuing religion makes the classical golden age much easier than skipping it. If you get your classical golden age without founding, great! More points for a medieval golden age.

I do wonder though...if you get a classical golden age, but have no faith output, what's powering the slingshot? Buying settlers with gold? I feel like faith via monumentality is the real driving force, and the other classical dedications pale in comparison.