acluewithout
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Third Expansion Hype! Man, I’m really hoping we get a Third Expansion. If we do, I think we may get more mechanics around ideology, and I wanted to chat about that.
This thread is for wild speculation – is FXS likely to do more ideologies? Is there even room for Ideologies? If so, what are FXS likely to do, and how might they tweak other existing mechanics?
I’ve posted in the Ideas thread, because I’m guessing this will rapidly turn into “this is how I’d like FXS to do ideologies” rather than actual speculation on how FXS will do it. And that’s fine by me.
Will we get Ideologies?
I think so, because not having them is a big gap. First, ideology has been central to at least 20th century history, so their absence is really felt (just like the lack of a real “industrial revolution” was prior to GS).
Second, the game lacks the feeling in the mid and late game of Civs falling into competing “blocs”, which to me is part of what’s missing from making the late game more fun.
Third, currently, there’s not much in the game that lets you really personalise your Civ, other than your Pantheon or, if you found a religion, Beliefs. Ideologies would be a good way to fix that.
Fourth, ideologies could also help re-invigorate the World Congress and some other mechanics (government plaza etc).
What might FXS do? Is there room for Ideologies?
I’ve been looking at some of the gaps in Civ VI (e.g. tourism not having any real independent effect) and mechanics in Civ V (particularly ideologies and culture, and social policies) and C:BE (particularly affinities), and I think there’s clearly some stuff FXS could be tempted to borrow from Civ V and C:BE. Yes, Civ VI’s mechanics are starting to get a little crowded, but I think with some tweaking FXS could introduce ideologies without bloating the game.
Overall, I think FXS might do something broadly like this...
Rework Governments. Having ideologies means getting rid of the current Tier 3 Governments, given they are currently explicitly described as “ideologies”. I think the logical way forward is to split “government institutions” from “ideology”, and so replacing the current Tier 3 Governments with Representative Democracy (instead of Democracy, i.e. rule by the many), Republic (instead of Fascism, i.e. rule by the few / elite), and Dictatorship (instead of Communism, i.e. rule by the one). The existing Tier 1, 2 and 4 Governments are fine as they are.
Beliefs. Broadly, I think ideologies could basically work like affinities in BE, with a touch of Social Policies thrown in. The starting point is that, once you unlock Political Philosophy, you start earning “Monarch” points from certain game actions (e.g. particular civics, recruiting particular great people) and or projects (“nation building”). Whatever. You can then spend these Monarch Points on levelling up in three main beliefs - Honour, Tradition or Freedom. You’d also maybe get free points for particular beliefs via your Government and Gov Plaza, (eg spending time in Oligarchy and building the equivalent of Warlords Throne would give you points in Honour) and maybe competing certain quests and or having envoys with particular city states (eg Military City states give you Honour points).
Each belief level would give you access to unique policy cards (which might synergise with particular governments or governors) and access to unique buildings in your government plaza (basically replacing the existing plaza buildings). Each of these beliefs would have maybe 5 levels all up (a bit like Social Policies in Civ V). In the medieval era, there might be some additional “minor” beliefs that would have, say, two levels max each, so you can mix a match a little (Piety, Patronage, etc).
Ideologies. Just like in Civ V where you transitioned from Social Policies to Ideology, in the Industrial Era you’d have access to Ideologies which would largely replace Beliefs. Basically, after (1) you’ve earned a minimum number of Monarch Points overall, and (2) you've reached level 5 in one of the main beliefs, you can found an ideology, being either Fascism, Communism, or Liberalism. The first Civ to found a particularly ideology would get some bonus (e.g. extra diplomatic favour). Once an Ideology has been founded, all other Civs can adopt that Ideology by spending Monarch points on that Ideology even though they haven’t reached level 5 in the main beliefs, however they’d still need to have completed the other pre-requisite i.e. earning enough Monarch points overall.
Ideologies wouldn’t have levels per se, instead you’d spend Monarch Points to unlock various perks or “tenets” (kind of like unique civics). These perks again provide unique cards and buildings for the Government Plaza and empire wide buildings, and each tenet you acquire increases your loyalty pressure to Civs with different ideologies. Just like beliefs, you’d also get addition points for particular ideologies based on your Government (eg Republic gives you points for Facism), Plaza buildings and maybe who you’re allied with (if you ally with a Facist country you earn points for the Facism Ideology). You're empire's Ideology would be whichever Ideology you currently have the most points in.
The big difference between Ideologies and the previous Beliefs would be that you exert loyalty and happiness pressure on other Civs with different ideologies based on your cultural output (i.e. foreign tourists) and other policies – just like in Civ V.
What else might get reworked?
Given the points above, I think there’s three things that would need to be reworked. First, Government Plaza. My feeling is GP buildings would stop being “free choice”, but instead you could only build GP buildings based on what Beliefs and Ideologies you’ve unlocked.
Second, Legacy Cards and Wild Cards. You’d basically need to get rid of Legacy Cards, with equivalent cards instead coming from your Beliefs / Ideologies. Most other Wild Cards would also therefore likely come from your Beliefs / Ideologies, rather than the Civics Tree or Governments.
Third, Alliances. You’d probably need to rework Alliances to just have a more basic Alliance pre-ideologies (instead of Cultural, Religious etc.), and then have an upgraded version of Alliances once you have Ideologies.
Ideologies would probably let FXS do a bit more with Tier 3 Buildings (different effects based on Ideology), amenities (+/- amenities in certain situations), and World Congress (e.g. maybe have permanent security counsel members based on Ideologies). ...Actually, there’s probably a lot that could be done with the World Congress. Just having resolutions targeting specific ideologies would be interesting, because you might then have to choose between sticking with your favoured ideology but being stuck with some negative resolution, or swapping ideologies and being clear.
Ideologies might also be an opportunity to do more around finance, economics, corporations, and just empire management generally.
Final thoughts
It’s obviously almost impossible to guess what FXS might do. They could obviously do something completely different to what I am suggesting, and even if they did do something along these lines there’s lots of room still.
My main points are really just that (1) I think there is room for ideologies in the game, indeed they could really improve some existing mechanics and fill in a big gap in the game, and (2) past versions of Civ already have mechanics that FXS could use to create a good Ideology system.
#onemoreexpansion
Just saying.
This thread is for wild speculation – is FXS likely to do more ideologies? Is there even room for Ideologies? If so, what are FXS likely to do, and how might they tweak other existing mechanics?
I’ve posted in the Ideas thread, because I’m guessing this will rapidly turn into “this is how I’d like FXS to do ideologies” rather than actual speculation on how FXS will do it. And that’s fine by me.
Will we get Ideologies?
I think so, because not having them is a big gap. First, ideology has been central to at least 20th century history, so their absence is really felt (just like the lack of a real “industrial revolution” was prior to GS).
Second, the game lacks the feeling in the mid and late game of Civs falling into competing “blocs”, which to me is part of what’s missing from making the late game more fun.
Third, currently, there’s not much in the game that lets you really personalise your Civ, other than your Pantheon or, if you found a religion, Beliefs. Ideologies would be a good way to fix that.
Fourth, ideologies could also help re-invigorate the World Congress and some other mechanics (government plaza etc).
What might FXS do? Is there room for Ideologies?
I’ve been looking at some of the gaps in Civ VI (e.g. tourism not having any real independent effect) and mechanics in Civ V (particularly ideologies and culture, and social policies) and C:BE (particularly affinities), and I think there’s clearly some stuff FXS could be tempted to borrow from Civ V and C:BE. Yes, Civ VI’s mechanics are starting to get a little crowded, but I think with some tweaking FXS could introduce ideologies without bloating the game.
Overall, I think FXS might do something broadly like this...
Rework Governments. Having ideologies means getting rid of the current Tier 3 Governments, given they are currently explicitly described as “ideologies”. I think the logical way forward is to split “government institutions” from “ideology”, and so replacing the current Tier 3 Governments with Representative Democracy (instead of Democracy, i.e. rule by the many), Republic (instead of Fascism, i.e. rule by the few / elite), and Dictatorship (instead of Communism, i.e. rule by the one). The existing Tier 1, 2 and 4 Governments are fine as they are.
Beliefs. Broadly, I think ideologies could basically work like affinities in BE, with a touch of Social Policies thrown in. The starting point is that, once you unlock Political Philosophy, you start earning “Monarch” points from certain game actions (e.g. particular civics, recruiting particular great people) and or projects (“nation building”). Whatever. You can then spend these Monarch Points on levelling up in three main beliefs - Honour, Tradition or Freedom. You’d also maybe get free points for particular beliefs via your Government and Gov Plaza, (eg spending time in Oligarchy and building the equivalent of Warlords Throne would give you points in Honour) and maybe competing certain quests and or having envoys with particular city states (eg Military City states give you Honour points).
Each belief level would give you access to unique policy cards (which might synergise with particular governments or governors) and access to unique buildings in your government plaza (basically replacing the existing plaza buildings). Each of these beliefs would have maybe 5 levels all up (a bit like Social Policies in Civ V). In the medieval era, there might be some additional “minor” beliefs that would have, say, two levels max each, so you can mix a match a little (Piety, Patronage, etc).
Ideologies. Just like in Civ V where you transitioned from Social Policies to Ideology, in the Industrial Era you’d have access to Ideologies which would largely replace Beliefs. Basically, after (1) you’ve earned a minimum number of Monarch Points overall, and (2) you've reached level 5 in one of the main beliefs, you can found an ideology, being either Fascism, Communism, or Liberalism. The first Civ to found a particularly ideology would get some bonus (e.g. extra diplomatic favour). Once an Ideology has been founded, all other Civs can adopt that Ideology by spending Monarch points on that Ideology even though they haven’t reached level 5 in the main beliefs, however they’d still need to have completed the other pre-requisite i.e. earning enough Monarch points overall.
Ideologies wouldn’t have levels per se, instead you’d spend Monarch Points to unlock various perks or “tenets” (kind of like unique civics). These perks again provide unique cards and buildings for the Government Plaza and empire wide buildings, and each tenet you acquire increases your loyalty pressure to Civs with different ideologies. Just like beliefs, you’d also get addition points for particular ideologies based on your Government (eg Republic gives you points for Facism), Plaza buildings and maybe who you’re allied with (if you ally with a Facist country you earn points for the Facism Ideology). You're empire's Ideology would be whichever Ideology you currently have the most points in.
The big difference between Ideologies and the previous Beliefs would be that you exert loyalty and happiness pressure on other Civs with different ideologies based on your cultural output (i.e. foreign tourists) and other policies – just like in Civ V.
What else might get reworked?
Given the points above, I think there’s three things that would need to be reworked. First, Government Plaza. My feeling is GP buildings would stop being “free choice”, but instead you could only build GP buildings based on what Beliefs and Ideologies you’ve unlocked.
Second, Legacy Cards and Wild Cards. You’d basically need to get rid of Legacy Cards, with equivalent cards instead coming from your Beliefs / Ideologies. Most other Wild Cards would also therefore likely come from your Beliefs / Ideologies, rather than the Civics Tree or Governments.
Third, Alliances. You’d probably need to rework Alliances to just have a more basic Alliance pre-ideologies (instead of Cultural, Religious etc.), and then have an upgraded version of Alliances once you have Ideologies.
Ideologies would probably let FXS do a bit more with Tier 3 Buildings (different effects based on Ideology), amenities (+/- amenities in certain situations), and World Congress (e.g. maybe have permanent security counsel members based on Ideologies). ...Actually, there’s probably a lot that could be done with the World Congress. Just having resolutions targeting specific ideologies would be interesting, because you might then have to choose between sticking with your favoured ideology but being stuck with some negative resolution, or swapping ideologies and being clear.
Ideologies might also be an opportunity to do more around finance, economics, corporations, and just empire management generally.
Final thoughts
It’s obviously almost impossible to guess what FXS might do. They could obviously do something completely different to what I am suggesting, and even if they did do something along these lines there’s lots of room still.
My main points are really just that (1) I think there is room for ideologies in the game, indeed they could really improve some existing mechanics and fill in a big gap in the game, and (2) past versions of Civ already have mechanics that FXS could use to create a good Ideology system.
#onemoreexpansion
Just saying.
