What do YOU want from the Science Dept?

[Cyc]

People of Fanatica, to my delight, it has become apparent that the Science Rate has increased so that it has out-stepped our Science Polls. This is a very good development for the Science Department, but not so good in the Tech by Tech chosing of the people.

Therefore I have decided to expand our "3 Techs From Now" program to a "5 Techs From Now" program. As has been discussed in this thread since its begining, it is clear that the majority of those who have spoken up wish to b-line for Democracy. This makes the leap from a 3 Tech to a 5 Tech program fairly easy at this time. According to the results of the last Science Poll, the people wish to research Banking after the study of Astronomy. That leaves us discovering the knowledge of how a Printing Press works before we finally get to research Democracy. As you can see from the picture below, Democracy would be 4 Techs from now. So, the new question is - Where do you want to be 5 Techs from now.

As you can see from the picture above, the techs with the Orange lines under them are our new Options. They are:

Gunpowder
Music Theory
Free Artistry
Economics
Navigation

Please post below and tell the Science Department where you would like to be 5 Techs from now.

 

[zorven]

I am not sure about 5 techs from now, but here is what I recommend:

1) Astronomy
2) Banking
3) Economics
4) Gunpowder

I really think ensuring Adams Smiths' is worth going for Economics. The gold saved with Adam Smith's can help boost the science rate, leading to faster tech discoveries. I would hate for us to lose that to another civ.

 

[Cyc]

Good point, zorven. I've replied to your post in the Science Dept. thread.

 

[Cyc]

The new Science Poll has been posted here.

 

[Cyc]

According to this Poll, Economics will be researched after we complete research on Democracy. The results of this Poll give us our fifth Tech in advance. A new Poll will go up on Monday, 7/28.

 

[Cyc]

During the last t/c (this morning) Fanatica finished researching Astronomy and Banking. We have now moved on to Printing Press.

 

[Cyc]

Things are moving along very quickly in the Science world these days. With our recent format change, we must move quickly with the next two Polls.

Economics will be researched after Democracy in our Tech Path to the future. But because our SciRate was so efficient in today's t/c, we finished researching two Techs, Astronomy and Banking. This means Economics is no longer 5 Techs out, but 3. Below I have posted an update to the Middle Ages Tech Tree for the current year, 920ad. As you can see, we are now researching Printing Press and from there we will go to Democracy, followed by Economics.

In our last update, we had 5 Options to choose from to vote for our next Tech to research. This time our selection is narrowed to 4. I was thinking about taking the two top vote-getters for our next two Techs, but decided against it, as I feel our SciRate might slow next t/c. Hopefully, I will be running two more Polls before end of Term. Anyway, the new Options are:

Gunpowder
Music Theory
Free Artistry
Navigation

It's a shorter list, so this should make choosing an Option easier. I will be posting a Poll very soon.

 

[Cyc]

Personally, I think once we discover Democracy, we should change Governments right away. I don't think we should wait for the next wonder to be built and I think we should stay out of any conflicts so the switch will be smooth.

Of the four Options listed above, I would choose Gunpowder. Gunpowder would show us if we had the needed Saltpeter anywhere on our lands and if so, let us upgrade our Military Forces.

Music Theory is always a favorite for me because of JS Bach's Cathedral, but I'm sure because we skipped it in pursuit of Democracy (with which JS Bach's is very useful) the other Nations will be sure to pick it up just to deny it to us.

Free Artistry is also another Favorite because of Shakespeare's Theatre. Hopefully we can pick that one up quickly.

Navigation? I never was much of a sailor.

 

[DaveShack]

I must protest the content of the last poll and the current one. We talked earlier about heading for Democracy but none of the "3 from now / 5 from now" polls mentioned researching it before the options listed in the poll.

My vote for Economics was for the path Banking->Economics->Printing Press->Democracy, not for Banking->Printing Press->Democracy->Economics. If we plan to get Smith's we must be started on a prebuild before the other civs get Economics, and we need to be able to get to Economics before the prebuild, or before some other civ completes another wonder we're building, else we don't get to cascade.

 

[Cyc]

@DaveShack - You are very welcome to protest if that's what you feel you must do. This Science disscussion thread has been open since the last day of June, and out of the 30 posts here, #29 is you're only contribution.

I suggest that if you have an opinion about the course of the Science Dept., you post it here.

 

[DaveShack]

Sorry, I haven't been in the habit of posting the same comments in 3 places. It looked to me like the poll every turn was where the action was, so that's where I posted. In the poll before last, the options included Banking and Printing Press, among others. My comments in that poll were that Economics should be the next goal after Banking, and you replied to that post, so you can't claim to have never seen anything from me about Science.

In the meantime, at least on my side it's not about who controls what. This is nothing more than a difference in game play style. My opinion is that researching Democracy is a bad idea just about all the time. I almost always research the required techs only, and use them as leverage to trade for the others. edit: The only non-required ones I usually research are for wonders (like Economics) and Chivalry (if I need Knights for a war)

Of course we also need to plan the wonders too. If we research printing press and democracy, revolt, and then research economics, even at a 4 turn rate we will start on Economics 12-14 turns later, and it will be 16-18 turns before we can start on Smith's (or switch a prebuild to it). Some AI could cascade to it before we're even allowed to start.

Since Smith's was the whole point of researching Banking first in the poll before last, we are effectively wasting the effort put into it. Also we tie our hands in that we can't sell Banking and let someone else get to Economics first.

 

[Cyc]

@DaveShack - First of all, let me clarify something for you. Smith's was not the whole point of researching Banking first in the poll before last, Democracy was. Because the people cried out to the Science Department to b-line for Democracy, Banking was an obvious stepping stone.

Second, we have plenty of time to pre-build for Smith's unless we pawn off Banking for for some "excellent deal" prematurely, then we may lose the Wonder. I'm sure you're chomping at the bit to sell off Astronomy as quickly as you can, so we may as well kiss that Wonder good-bye. If that turns out to be the case, Smith's will roll around just in time, as Copernicus' Observatory will not be complete for another 20 turns.

If you're worried about some AI cascading to Smith's, I suggest that you do not sell them, or anyone really, Banking.

Planning for Wonders? Let's see what available. The Art of War hasn't been completed yet, Leonardo's Workshop is still under construction, JS Bach's Cathedral hasn't been started yet, we're the only nation building Copernicus' Observatory, Shakespeare's Theater, Smith's Trading Company, Magellan's Voyage (a commercial civ's bonus), and Newton's University are all waiting to be started. That's 8 Wonders available here at the end of the Middle Ages.

We are Technologically advanced and will hopefully stay that way. In order to do so, we need to become a Democracy. As we get close to attaining the Democracy Tech, we can judge how far off any one of the available Great Wonders are. If we do need to put off the revolt for a government change for a few turns then so be it. But as I said before, we did very well on the amount of time we had to spend in Anarchy for our last change in government, and I hope this next period will be just as brief.

 

[zorven]

Originally posted by Cyc
... Because the people cried out to the Science Department to b-line for Democracy....

Just for reference, could you point this out? I have read all of the relevent threads I could find, and I see no "cry" for a beeline to Democracy.

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by zorven


Just for reference, could you point this out? I have read all of the relevent threads I could find, and I see no "cry" for a beeline to Democracy.

Here's some I found zorven. Please don't respond until I am done. Thanks, this will take a while.

Quoting Rik Meleet:
If we choose Monarchy, bee-line to education and then to Democracy we won't loose time, resources and beakers on non-essential techs (republic, chivalry) and once we are in Democracy go for Economics or down the tree to Mil tradition.
__________________________________________

Quoting Eklektikos:
Direction-wise I'd agree with Rik. We should be aiming to get our hands on Democracy before any of the AI civs do, if only because of the enormous returns one can achieve by trading it around.
___________________________________________

Quoting ScorpiusAP:
I also agree for the most part. My disagreement is I'd like to see feudalism first and then lets avoid the non essentials and make a mad dash for democracy.
___________________________________________

Quoting Strider telling me how to be Science Leader:
The AI's normally go for feudalism first... so I would suggest that we just trade for it and go straight up the path to democracy.
___________________________________________

Quoting Cyc (I'm a citizen Too ):
I agree mostly with our main need being the pursuit of Democracy, but that is a long way off. We have to be prepared for it as a nation. That means we have to be building banks. A lot of them.
___________________________________________

Quoting Rik Meleet again:
I want to steam on to Democracy. It is time there is Democracy (The Government following the will of the people) in this game.
___________________________________________

OK, that's all for this thread, let me check the others...

One of a couple of quotes from me in the Science Dept. thread indicating a move towards Democracy:
I'd also like us to grab Music Theory, in order to build JS Bach's Cathedral. This is a very popular Great Wonder, but deviates slightly from the bee-line to Democracy some of our citizens are looking for. I feel both are a must, as happiness will probably become a problem for us in the near future. After that, because we are the Romans, I can see Smith's Trading Post being completed before any Science Wonders are built.
__________________________________________

OK, let's go check the Polls

From first Science Poll
Quoting Rik Meleet:
Combined; I say: Monotheism -->Theology -->Education . This will kill the Great lib, bee-line straight for Democracy and doesn't give a "useless" tech prining press.
_________________________________________

Quoting Eklektikos:
I voted to go for the Printing Press. I suspect that the AI will research education before we can get to it, whereas it doesn't seem to put such a high priority on researching the Printing Press and we may be able to sell it to them for a decent price if we can get there first.
_________________________________________

Quoting DaveShack:
I voted to go for Education, as it provides the fastest way to the scientific wonders Copernicus and Newtons, and can be traded for the other pre-reqs to Democracy, or for the Invention path.
_________________________________________

Quoting Eklektikos:
Personally I suspect that education will be widespread before we can get a hold of it. It's also worth pointing out that even if we do manage to get it before the AI does, the only pre-req to Democracy that we could possibly hope to trade it for is Printing Press - which I believe the AI will probably not bother researching until after it has education.
__________________________________________

Quoting Stuck:
I vote Printing Press. In all of my games, I have never seen the AI research that one ONCE. They always ended paying for it through the nose for it to me. I know that on Emperor they dont, not sure of Deity, but its an almost guarentee that on Monarch they wont head to Printing Press. I see that it is not the leader as of now, but I urge people to vote Printing Press if they are yet to do so. I also hope that this network I'm using doesnt loose this... Who knew some reststops upstate had WiFi networks?
__________________________________________

From the 2nd Science Poll -

Quoting Eklektikos:
My vote went to printing press, but only because it's often neglected by the AI and could therefore almost certainly be traded as well as leading to Democracy. That said, if we have a good shot at researching Banking before the AI reaches it I'd be very much in favour of that instead. Whatever puts us in the best situation and gets us Democracy fastest.
________________________________________

From the 3rd Science Poll -
Quoting DaveShack:
We could go Banking->Printing Press->Democracy which gets us to the bonuses from government type, but this hits two non-required techs. Instead we could focus on strictly required techs and buy the non-required ones from our rivals, but it's lucrative only if we're the first ones there.
________________________________________

Quoting Eklektikos:
Printing Press or banking, whichever seems most likely to get us to Democracy fastest.
________________________________________

 

[ravensfire]

Cyc,

I've done about the same digging as you. From the reading, it is pretty clear from the posts that people do want to get to Democracy quickly. I think what Zorven is concerned about that the decision for beeline to Democracy was not polled directly.

There are citizens who don't post in threads, but do vote. While you are correct that the is support, and a fair amount, for Democracy, this support comes from posts in a thread, not from an explicit poll.

My guess is that a poll requesting that citizens confirm the beeline to Democracy will resolve the concerns. I'm pretty sure it will be confirmed, but this would be the best manner to deal with the problems.

Thanks!
-- Ravensfire

BTW - Your doing probably the best job in Science I've seen. Way more planning and thought that I've ever seen. By far the best minister this term!

 

[zorven]

Cyc,

Thanks for digging out the quotes. I am beginning to think you will not convince me of the "cry of the people". I have read the threads you mention from beginning to end. While there are a few people who expressed the opinion to beeline to Democracy, they were only a few and they made the statements a month ago. I also think some of your quotes are outdated, out of context, or inapplicable to the discussion. Again, when I read the threads, I did not come to the same conclusion as you.

As far as directly polling the question, as ravensfire said, that has not been a major issue with me. However, since you do poll often, why not poll every step of the tech research?

(Whatever our disagreement is on this issue, I will say again I think you are doing a good job overall.)

 

[Cyc]

Thank you, ravensfire. I will stop there (I was getting tired of all those posting, myself). If you have read the posts above, you will find 10 statements referring to b-lining or getting to Democracy as quickly as possible. And I didn't even finish looking.

The restructuring of the Tech polling format was an in-house decision as we were falling behind in our queue because of our research speed. There was no time to poll on the issue, and IMHO there was no need to poll for a format change. I took the healthiest support direction for a Tech and made the change. That's my job. I took into consideration the will of the people, as it was known to me at the time in making this change. Had there been more discussion about not going for Democracy first, or even more voting in the Polls I put up, other avenues could have been looked at. As Science Minister, I am satisfied with the result.

BTW, thank you for the kind words. I think you have a great sign-on name. It's one with passion.

Thanks again, Zorven.

 

[DaveShack]

Hi Cyc,

For your reference, here is a link to one of my posts in the department thread.

I'll go ahead and repeat key points here.

• I'm not normally in the habit of posting the same thing 2-3 times. My comments on the issue can be found in the poll threads.
• It's your department, I'm just giving input. I think you're doing a great job. Posting a separate poll says nothing about you -- if anything I screwed up by not making a ruckus earlier.
• A vote on the subject of democracy first will make prevailing opinion clear.

My philosophy is to poll it if there is any meaningful dissent. In the 3 techs from now poll that selected Banking, there were several comments from people who wanted Economics after Banking. That is a meaningful point, and I would have polled it.

As it sits now, Democracy has a 2-1 advantage with roughly 50% voter turnout (going from memory on previous vote totals, this is not a scientific estimate)

I do not mind in the slightest being wrong if the voting trend continues. The question has been asked openly and is getting answered openly.

I envy the participation your threads receive. What's the secret to getting people to read your stuff and respond to it?

 

[Cyc]

Please don't forget to vote in the current Science Poll. Your vote is needed, the next t/c is scheduled for this Wednesday. We are only three Techs ahead in the research queue at this time.

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by DaveShack
Hi Cyc,

For your reference, here is a link to one of my posts in the department thread.

I'll go ahead and repeat key points here.

• I'm not normally in the habit of posting the same thing 2-3 times. My comments on the issue can be found in the poll threads.
• It's your department, I'm just giving input. I think you're doing a great job. Posting a separate poll says nothing about you -- if anything I screwed up by not making a ruckus earlier.
• A vote on the subject of democracy first will make prevailing opinion clear.

My philosophy is to poll it if there is any meaningful dissent. In the 3 techs from now poll that selected Banking, there were several comments from people who wanted Economics after Banking. That is a meaningful point, and I would have polled it.

As it sits now, Democracy has a 2-1 advantage with roughly 50% voter turnout (going from memory on previous vote totals, this is not a scientific estimate)

I do not mind in the slightest being wrong if the voting trend continues. The question has been asked openly and is getting answered openly.

I envy the participation your threads receive. What's the secret to getting people to read your stuff and respond to it?

Hi DaveShack,

I've apologized in the current poll for my words regarding this matter. Hopefully, you will find that satisfactory.

In regards to your key points above, I would say:
1. The discussion thread for any Department I run is the place for comment, questions and protests. The Department thread is for official postings and the like, but comments and questions are still welcome. Polls are not the place for comments, in my opinion, although as most people get the urge to post them in a poll to sway opinion, I do foolow siut and post as well. So if you want to just post in one thread, I would recomend the discussion thread.
2. Thank you. I guess I got a little tee'd off myself. I should have used more restraint. Maybe my medication needs upping.
3. Yes, that true. The current opinion on the subject will become clearer because of your Poll.
4. I think I've pretty much stated my stance on the basic issue we're discussing.
5. About my threads...I have no idea. Maybe it's because the people of Fanatica are aware for my love of this game.