What if I start with a worker?

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^I imagine you play with barbs, right? I don't, so it seems strange that you leave your cities open to attack. Maybe I'm just not experienced with barbs, but I'd like to try leaving them on in my next game. Really just fishing for tips and tactics with barbs enabled, I guess .

 

[Quagga]

I imagine you play with barbs, right? I don't, so it seems strange that you leave your cities open to attack.

Unlike Civ3, barbs don't enter your cultural borders right away. They wander around in the wilderness, menacing your scouts and settlers. At least on the slow settings, this means quite a bit of building before they come at you.

Unfortunately, it can mean that they come at you hard and fast once 2400 BC has been reached. I once had a stack of 6 (archers and warriors) hit my capital a couple turns after this date. Do I need say? I wasn't prepared.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Barbs attack in stacks? uh oh! 2400BC is the date to watch out for then? Thanks for the tip, Quagga, now let's see how well I fare in tonights game including Barbs!

 

[Quagga]

Barbs attack in stacks?

I think the stack was just an accident. There can be a lot of barbs wandering around and they can step into your boundaries all at the same time.

 

[drkodos]

^^^I imagine you play with barbs, right? I don't, so it seems strange that you leave your cities open to attack. Maybe I'm just not experienced with barbs, but I'd like to try leaving them on in my next game. Really just fishing for tips and tactics with barbs enabled, I guess .

Absolutely play with barbs and sometimes raging barbs. To me, playing without barbarians is cheating-lite.

But, only animals are present through the beginning and the warrior barbs do not attack cities until several turns after their arival.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^I don't consider playing without barbs cheating. I used to play with them on when I was Chieftan/Warlord levels. Once I made the jump to Noble, I had to turn them off so I could adjust to the new level... I just never turned them back on because I really get mad when they kill my scout! I heard on another thread that they won't attack anything but your scouts until 2400 BC. Is that true?

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi All,

I used to like to wait until the population was larger to build any unit that stopped pop growth (worker, settler). I like to play as Bismarck and so I would start with a scout (recon addict), then a warrior (since I started with a scout, not worker) while pop grew to 2, then worker. That worked fine on lower levels (noble, in a normal game or in my unbalanced team scenarios on hotseat). The two scouts early (before animals and human barbs) would get me six or so huts, never hostile, often at least one tech, and about 200 gold.

Then I played GOTM 10 at immortal, and thought that the early production might be more important on that level. Started thinking about what is the marginal benefit of pop2 no improved tiles vs pop 1 and an improved tile.

Seems like in most cases, pop 2 guy (or gal) gets to work a tile to give 1 extra food, or one extra hammer, or one extra commerce. Might get 2 (the same or mixed) in some cases. But the marginal benefit of getting the worker to improve a tile for the pop 1 guy/gal is usually going to be better if there is a resource to improve.

So if you judge a city's "power" by its usable production (not its size), the pop1 improved tile city is often more powerful than the pop 2 unimproved tiles city.

So I am now a fan of starting with a worker if the Civ does not make scouts at the start. Still debating with myself about whether making one more scout if you start with scouts is a useful exploring boost or not.

dV

 

[krozman]

I turn off barbarians because it's too random,and I play on emperor/immortal. Sometimes I get a huge advantage, and sometimes I get screwed big time. I prefer a more skill based approach,where if I lose the game, it's my fault, not some random early game novelty.


Regarding the worker, however, I ALWAYS, without any exception, wait until population 2. I play on marathon, and a worker will pump out in 30 turns with pop 1, and 24 turns on pop 2. Not a huge difference, EXCEPT that it only takes 13-22 turns to grow from 1 to 2. That means if you start a worker immediately, you lose 6 turns from the worker build, AND an additional 13-22 turns of the second tile of commerce in research.

At this early stage of the game, two commerce coins are the difference between bronze working in 37 turns and 46 turns. Your choice to build a worker first just cost you 3/4ths of a tech.

Get a worker out after 2, chop rush two settlers, then and ONLY then will you work tiles. Those of you who say "it's only a couple turns to get a farm built, it's no big deal" should really play on marathon, where it takes 12 turns to get that farm built, and you really do see the difference in chop rushing prior to building improvements.

Now, for the second and 3rd cities, sometimes it's acceptable to get the worker out first, just because you have a lot of catching up to do with improvements, and you're not ceasing the population growth of your capital, which is really where you will win or lose the early game.

krozman

 

[Stolen Rutters]

My favorite starts depending on specific opening, playing standard, normal:
1. Worker, warrior, settler... (I need to have the worker tech line up with the immediate improvements I can make)
2. workboat, warrior, worker (sometimes), settler... (fishing + nice coastal start, of course)
3. warrior/quechua, worker, settler... (there would be too much of a wait to get the worker techs I would need to use the worker straight away so I may as well let the city grow first)

I havent' tried the worker, worker, settler start, yet, since it requires significant chopping and defensive units are built later (maybe popping warrior huts solves that problem). I normally like keeping two or four forests around for health in the early game, but I might consider this build if I happen to be surrounded by trees. (Never done settler first in Civ 4 either... wow, just had an old settler-spam flashback).

I think the stack was just an accident. There can be a lot of barbs wandering around and they can step into your boundaries all at the same time.

Play a Terra map and you will see a real barbarian stack when you try to explore the new world. They play kind of like another Civ... They have time to establish cities and improve their units in the new world while the regular Civs are duking it out. They send monster stacks to take out your first New World outposts but they run out of troops eventually... if you can hold out.

 

[da_Vinci]

Regarding the worker, however, I ALWAYS, without any exception, wait until population 2. I play on marathon, and a worker will pump out in 30 turns with pop 1, and 24 turns on pop 2. Not a huge difference, EXCEPT that it only takes 13-22 turns to grow from 1 to 2. That means if you start a worker immediately, you lose 6 turns from the worker build, AND an additional 13-22 turns of the second tile of commerce in research.

At this early stage of the game, two commerce coins are the difference between bronze working in 37 turns and 46 turns. Your choice to build a worker first just cost you 3/4ths of a tech.

krozman

Your point about how game speed might influence these decisions is a good one. I usually play quick or normal, so probably have a different view.

I am not sure the speed issue is about 30 turns to a worker vs say 8 on quick, if all other build costs are increased in proportion. But the issue of having an extra unit in the field moving over those 30 turns of the worker might be an advantage, if he has something productive to do.

Two extra commerce coins, added to the 8 already from the palace (if I remember right, or maybe different on different speeds?) is just a 25% increase in the research rate, compared to on extra hammer being perhaps a 33% increase in production (if you were working a 2F 1 H forrest with pop 1). Given the long number of turns between units, maybe the one hammer is the better use? Or a mined hill even better?

The ultimate question is not how fast did you get to the first tech, but how fast do you get to, say, your first five techs or ten techs. The logic that says you give up too much stopping population growth to make the worker first, would also mean that you should not make the worker until the pop has hit its cap. I have not yet run any tests of this, but I would expect that the early loss of commerce or production building the worker at pop 1 for 30 turns is made up in the not so long run by the fact that pop 1 can work an improved tile during the turns that a matching city has two pop working unimproved tiles while the worker is being built.

But ultimately, this question can be answered empirically.

dV

 

[drkodos]

The logic that says you give up too much stopping population growth to make the worker first, would also mean that you should not make the worker until the pop has hit its cap. I have not yet run any tests of this, but I would expect that the early loss of commerce or production building the worker at pop 1 for 30 turns is made up in the not so long run by the fact that pop 1 can work an improved tile during the turns that a matching city has two pop working unimproved tiles while the worker is being built.

But ultimately, this question can be answered empirically.

dV

It has been answered. Getting a worker out and getting tiles improved yields the best results over 30, 50. 100+ turns. For all practical purposes, getting a workboat out is similar for the argument. The upside of city growth while constructing the workboat is levied against the fact that it is only used once to improve a single tile.

And that is yet another reason why the worker is often the better build between the two if a choice need be made early. If one can improve watered grain or pigs with commerce and still have the unit left over for more work, that is better long term that the single shot provided by the workboat.

Also, a single extra commerce at the onset is pivotal. It shortens the discovery period for most initial techs by an entire turn. Turn advantage is the single most important tactic a human can leverage with greater flexibility and ease than can the AI because of the long term strategic thinking ability some primates posess. A one turn differnce in the first 25 turns is game breaking.

 

[Meatbuster]

In Marathon you comparatively lose less population growth (than Normal) from the worker since it's only 2x build time compared to Normal while improvements/chopping are 3x. Does this make the worker-first automatically "better" at Marathon speed?

 

[da_Vinci]

It has been answered. Getting a worker out and getting tiles improved yields the best results over 30, 50. 100+ turns.

Also, a single extra commerce at the onset is pivotal. It shortens the discovery period for most initial techs by an entire turn. Turn advantage is the single most important tactic a human can leverage with greater flexibility and ease than can the AI because of the long term strategic thinking ability some primates posess. A one turn differnce in the first 25 turns is game breaking.

So is an extra commerce more valuable than an extra hammer? That was the comparison I was making, noting that because of the palace, even two extra commerece was a net 25% increase in commerce, while one extra hammer could well be a 33% (or even 50%) increase, and shorten the production of a military unit or building by several of turns.

So does turn advantage apply equally to tech and to builds?

dV

 

[malekithe]

So is an extra commerce more valuable than an extra hammer?

No. But, if you're talking about two commerce, that's a much better question.

The problem with delaying a worker is that, yes, you'll get to 2 population faster, but you'll probably get to 3 population much slower and delay important projects such as a settler, granary, or library. There are times when you should lead with something other than a worker, but those times are almost exclusively limited to scenarios in which he wouldn't be able to do anything right away (religion grab with no useful worker techs).

 

[Pinstar]

It mostly depends on my starting techs.

If I start with fishing and have a sea resource, I'll go Work boat-worker-warrior-settler

If I start with agriculture I'll go worker-warrior-settler

If I start with myst, I'll go Warrior-worker-settler while I make that stab at an early religion.

 

[Tulx]

I usually dont build never worker first. It wouldnt do anything useful because the lack of techs... I go for early religion so I sometimes even bulid worker the third thing in capital city.

 

[drkodos]

So is an extra commerce more valuable than an extra hammer? That was the comparison I was making, noting that because of the palace, even two extra commerece was a net 25% increase in commerce, while one extra hammer could well be a 33% (or even 50%) increase, and shorten the production of a military unit or building by several of turns.

So does turn advantage apply equally to tech and to builds?

dV

I believe the extra commerce is sufficiently more valuable than the extra hammer at the very beginning of the game. Even if one is not headed for techs that give a bonus to the first person getting there (Religions, Free tech, Wonder building).

One reason I believe commerce need be given greater weight at the onset is that there is little need for military units in the first 10 to 15 turns of the game. And the Warrior unit is not a very strong one that I would wish to invest in anyway. Until the metals come online, military units are rather uninspiring.

And how do metals come online? Research! Get the workers out, improve & work high food and commerce tiles, CHOP & WHIP (as needed) for higher production, and the city will hit sizes 5, 6, 7 in less turns than going for pop first (in the largest number of standard cases).

In comparison games when player A goes for city pop first, they are often frantically building workers to get to metal resources while player B is already building Axemen and has cities exploding with the growth of their developed tiles.

Stealing even more workers is good, too.

I usually dont build never worker first. It wouldnt do anything useful because the lack of techs... I go for early religion so I sometimes even bulid worker the third thing in capital city.

Regardless of one's starting techs, you can always research a tech that gives the worker a job while you are building the worker. That seems to be the most efficient use of the first set of turns when one is using their only unit to explore and pretty much just waiting for something else to do while repeatedly hitting Space Bar/Enter.

 

[obsolete]

I turn off barbarians because it's too random,and I play on emperor/immortal. Sometimes I get a huge advantage, and sometimes I get screwed big time. I prefer a more skill based approach,where if I lose the game, it's my fault, not some random early game novelty.

Dude, you get a huge advantage EVERY time you turn off Barbarians. Don't kid yourself.

 

[eric_]

I reach the point of having a large herd of (flock?) of workers.

I believe "gaggle" is the appropriate term for a large group of working humans.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

gaggle! Classic! Go get 'em Gaggle! Hishutsi scores! The best player on the Gaggle!


Thanks, man. The first real laugh of the day! (It's good for your health, too!)