[BTS] Noble Shadow Game: Wow, Joao

[keyboard-rider]

Hello! After some initial feedback in another thread, here is a Noble-level shadow game I would like to play with you.

We have bog standard settings, Pangaea etc., no random events, no huts.

And we rolled Joao, who is Expansive and Imperialistic. Not one of my favorite leaders, but why not?

As for our starting position: We have Marble to the northeast, and a dry Cow 2W. I would use the Warrior to scout with the Hill 1S, and move Settler 1NW in the hope of perhaps discovering another resource. Barring that, from there, settle either 1S or 1W. I currently prefer 1S for more commerce by the river.

Research: Agriculture first to be able to farm the corn, then TW/Pottery to put down some huts next to river.

Worker first, farm corn, then put down mine 1S/SW while waiting for Pottery, then some cottages by the river.

What are your thoughts?

Note: I am not sure how valuable that Marble is.

Edit: Attached starting position image changed from PNG to JPG.

 

[Gumbolt]

Start looks horrible. You don't start with agriculture. This delays your only food resource. Can we get a start where you don't have just the one cow resource? What is the 'rising sea' setting?

A start like this and you would of likely gone settler first as you would be waiting for AH or BW. BW adds some value as you get 50% bonus on settler production and 25% bonus on workers.

To learn the basics you want a map with at least 2 food resources in your starting area.

I couldn't see any corn in your start.

The marble is great for production but requires marble. It's -1 food on growth Apart from cows and farmed grassland you have no tile over 3F here.Farming plains is pointless. So a mine first mean you are growing at 1f a turn. 22 turn growth. Which is why unless building a settler or worker it's not a good idea. You can use the 1f2H tile here and that will get you a worker in 10T or settler in 15T. So 3400bc settler.

 

[sampsa]

There is no visible corn. You should SIP (=settle in place) for the extra city center unless warrior reveals something. Definitely don't waste a turn settling 1W on a forest, it's just losing time and .

Plains cow is a good tile for Joao (traits can use early very well), but you need two techs to improve is it which is very bad.

 

[Izuul]

SIP for sure. Pray there's more food in the fog to the east? If not I think you can go 15T settler into 10T worker while researching AH. That would be a wild opening. Haha

Edit: now that I'm in out of the sun that looks like a PH and a forest to the east so no food. Yikes. Rough start!

 

[keyboard-rider]

Start looks horrible. You don't start with agriculture. This delays your only food resource.

A start like this and you would of likely gone settler first as you would be waiting for AH or BW. BW adds some value as you get 50% bonus on settler production and 25% bonus on workers.

To learn the basics you want a map with at least 2 food resources in your starting area.

I couldn't see any corn in your start.

The marble is great for production but requires marble. It's -1 food on growth Apart from cows and farmed grassland you have no tile over 3F here.Farming plains is pointless. So a mine first mean you are growing at 1f a turn. 22 turn growth. Which is why unless building a settler or worker it's not a good idea. You can use the 1f2H tile here and that will get you a worker in 10T or settler in 15T. So 3400bc settler.

Good point about the bonus hammers from chopping, thanks.
I will keep in mind the >=2 food resources requirement for future games. I am hoping the AIs are getting similar rough starts...
No corn, cow instead - my mistake.

There is no visible corn. You should SIP (=settle in place) for the extra city center unless warrior reveals something. Definitely don't waste a turn settling 1W on a forest, it's just losing time and .

Plains cow is a good tile for Joao (traits can use early very well), but you need two techs to improve is it which is very bad.

No corn, cow instead - my mistake. Yes, Hunting and AH required...

Went Settler first, then Worker. Went SW with Warrior to scout. Found a 2H Plains/Hill and a Zulu Scout. Dry Rice to the south, flood plains, 2x Gold and Horses to the east. Further flood plains beyond. Teched Hunting, AH and TW. Worker should Pasture Cow, then Quarry Marble (which implies now researching Masonry), then do road to Oporto, then cottaging as applicable.

 

[sampsa]

Settler first openings are a bit tricky and you've already misplayed this. In general you should try to settle the 2nd city pretty close to your capital. If you went hunt-AH you should've just claimed the deer. It's not great, but 4 is not nothing. Your actual 2nd city will contribute very close to nothing. No thus no growth! If you want a city there I'd suggest on the southern gold, because it claims a floodplain and thus can grow. Desert gold is not a great tile but settling on it gives +1pt.

 

[soundjata]

Horrible start.
With settler first, city2 can NW of horses or on the southern gold I think.
Deer, well, dear!

 

[Fippy]

Plains-cow thinks that's a great start!
In AI Survivor you would be the overwhelming favorite.

 

[Gumbolt]

Difficult map to learn the game. The gold city has no food. Unless you farm the river tiles. Which renders 2-3 cottage tiles useless. Without a farm you can't use the gold resources as you would be stuck on size 1 city. I guess with fams you might get the city to size 4-5 eventually. Where a 4F resource give much better growth. Same for flood plains. They can be cottaged while you grow,

Ideally your new city needed at least 1 food resource. So far all you have is a deer and rice. Land around the deer has not been scouted.

You can see the culture of another AI to the east if you zoom out. Koreans?

If you want to play this map i would play much slower as mistakes on a map like this are costly.

 

[keyboard-rider]

What is the 'rising sea' setting?

Nothing special, see attached image.

With settler first, city2 can NW of horses or on the southern gold I think.

Why NW of Horses? 2H production and some extra commerce from river tiles, but only 2F improved start, worse than Deer and Rice spots?

Second attempt also attached. We were lucky to scout the Deer very soon.

Now at T15, Settler just out. Researched Hunting, finishing AH. We see the following food:

- Deer +2/+2 with Camp
- dry Rice +3/+1 with Farm, 1SE or 1 SW

Both spots have very few immediately cottagable tiles. Oh, well. How would you reason about these spots?

Spot next to Deer and Spot 1SW of Rice gets 2F/1C cottage spot. Here Rice seems superior due to +1 initial Food. Agriculture can be researched after AH, but this also delays TW and Pottery.

Spot 1SE of Rice can cottage a Desert tile (for just 1C... eh...) and a Wine for 1F/1H/2C which can later be replaced with Winery.

Could also delay Settler move and see what Warrior can spot further to the east.

 

[soundjata]

NW of horses for a faster 2nd worker (2H city center)
It will also bring lots of initially as opposed to other choices.
The city can stay at level 1 building workers/settlers on the horse tile.
It also goes in the "right direction", as opposed to deer.

On deity I would camp the initial warrior on the gold and put the second city there if possible, to avoid losing the spot to an AI 3rd city.
On noble it is probably not contested and could be your 3rd city.

 

[Gumbolt]

If you got 1NW of horse you might as well chariot rush the nearby AI. You will want to grab those flood plains. Wiping out the AI will help with this. You will need BW to chop forest and a further worker. Do you go 3 cities or just build chariots on 2 cities. Maybe just 2. Health not an issue as fresh water, Bonus +2 for Noble and civ traits.

You won't be able to whip much so you would need to heavily chop. If he only has warriors 3-4 chariots will do. If he has archers then 5-6 maybe?

 

[keyboard-rider]

Tried two chariot rushes, one with 3-4, the other with 7-8 units. No dice. Flood plains are close to Wang Kon, Protective, who founded Seoul on a Hills.

 

[Gumbolt]

Is the city on a hill. That makes the odds worse. What defenders did he have?

 

[Fippy]

2 protective hill archers are already too much for chariots..not a good plan.
Well you could overwhelm them with numbers - in theory - but it's dicey and not good use of your cities.

 

[Gumbolt]

So built settler then 3 workers. Spammed chariots. Went TW then BW. Pre roaded some forest required to reach horse city. Used 3 chariots vs 2 warriors and capital fell.

You needed to attack before turn 50 to stop 40% cultural defences. Maybe I got lucky and he went settler before archers. Pretty sure he had archery.

I tried delaying attack by 4-5 turns and still no archer but a settler came out. Still only had warrior defences. 1720bc attack is far too late.

 

[Gumbolt]

Did a second run. This time I went settler, double worker in both cities. Hunting/AH/TW/BW. Switched to 100% tax when i could not afford 100% science.

Took the capital 2280bc. Had 4 chariots vs 2 warriors. Lost 1 chariot.

Workers improved horse/cows. Roaded on forest and to connect both cities. Then chopped.

I probably should of stopped at 4 chariots and built a settler.

 

[aitkensam]

I played this one out for fun a few days ago too. Our own land is horrid which makes rushing seem like the best play. So I'm not sure it's an ideal map for learning.

Spoiler :

Settled the gold/horses and chariot rushed Wang. Then decided it would be fun to play this in the style of a HoF map so choked the world with chariots, teched to HBR and then killed the world. Mwahaha. Final save attached plus some screenshots

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

I didn't want to talk down chariots..they are great on Noble
Was about not attacking several hill archers with them, at that point a plan change should be considered.
Gumbo and aitkensam showed what's most important on rushes: rushing..aka build your units as fast as possible.

 

[Gumbolt]

I had my warrior by his border to see what was in the capital till I attacked. Adjusting plans is always important.

HA would of been fine Vs archers.

One trick is to let settler and a defending unit move out but that may be too late. Noble ai struggle to expand before 2200bc.

It would be better to play a game where you build an economy. Early rushes are fun on Noble but they don't work when ai start with archers. Especially true for warrior rushes and sometimes chariots archers on hills.