What if we just remake this mod anew?

[Nikas Kunitz]

Before going forth, I would like to clarify something to avoid being called delusional or like that. Yes, I understand that making this post might be pointless, considering that modding community of the 20 year old game is not nearly as active as it was even 10 years ago, and that it is unlikely that there will be a professional enough RFC-type mod maker that will enthusiastically take the idea of remaking this mod (atleast, there wasn't such since AbsintheRed departed from this forum, although it cheers up to see some people trying to improve existing mod). Yet, I still would like to make this post to share ideas and things I made for potential new RFCE mod over the years, atleast that they would become public and not just be collecting dust in my computer and head, completely pointlessly. And maybe, just maybe, someone would get interested in remaking RFCE and will find my ideas useful.

PRELUDE: MY EXPERIENCE WITH RFCEUROPE OVER THE YEARS
Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, including its derivative mods, was part of my Civ experience ever since I started playing it around 10 years ago. I suppose I spent no less time with RFC mods than with vanilla game and "normal" mods. As it is usual for me, I spent no less time modmodding mods than playing them, improving what I saw necessary.
I discovered RFCEurope pretty soon, and it's concept naturally caught my interest. Representing European history using RFC mechanics obviously has great potential. I spent nice time playing various civs. However, as soon as I discovered RFCE I noticed a lot of problems it has. Perhaps what was most glaring for me is how messy Eastern Europe is. While geography is not much worse that the rest of the map, city names and locations (only capitals and few other are correct) and how AI played are (almost) completely unrealistic and senseless. Other parts of the map also have a lot of issues, especially regarding geography, cities and how it all plays out. All in all, it all is representation of Europe and its history in rather broad strokes (of course regarding Civ4 and RFC limitations as well). Despite all this criticism, I still admire AbsintheRed and all others how made and contributed to this mod - getting in modmaking myself I clearly see how much work and knowledge it requires to make it all. I have issues mostly with representation of geography and history, not quality of the mod itself.
Thus, as it is/was usual for me, I spend great time improving RFCE, doing personal modmoding, so to speak. Back in the years ago, I fixed a lot of things I found issues with, mostly map geography, city placement and names, settler and flip maps etc. My greatest achievement, I think, was that I generally fixed Eastern Europe, making Kievan Rus, Novgorod, Poland, Lithuania and Muscovy/Russia play much more historically realistic, founding real cities on much improved landscape (it made new balance issues, though, as Kievan Rus was either knocked out of a game early by some random nomads, or became leading civ, colonising all historical Rus territory except Novgorod and successfully surviving Mongol invasions far past its historical time). Other parts of the map also got their share of improvements. Then I had some years of break with RFCE. When I returned later, I found that, thanks to my much greater knowledge of history and geography, despite many improvements, there were still many issues that I missed, or some of my improvements were dubious. Also, because of uncareful overmodding I made some problems with balance or playability. By playing some games, it became clear that I need to remake my improvements again on default RFCE to get things as I want, and, by seeing some general issues with existing mod I decided to not do that cycle (that I already had with RFCDoC). That's since then, some years ago, I started to think about some "perfect" RFCEurope as kind of mental gymnastics in free time.

First of all, I started to work on a better map. Some time later I made my first map of Europe with RFCE in mind (I made some other Europe maps before). However, it clearly had some issues. Despite great detail, some parts were not so accurate and generally felt "wacky". Most importantly, it clearly was too big to be played effectively (for example of scale, Bohemia was represented not just by Prague with big cross, but by Prague surrounded with Plzen, Budejovice and Hradec Kralove, while Moravia was intended to fit in both Brno and Olomouc). So, I started to work on better better map, both smaller yet more accurate...

IDEAS AND THINGS START THERE
The map
Not going into much words here, I finished the map I wanted and posted it recently. It was made with RFCE gameplay in mind, like city placement, but is also good in itself.
Check it out: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nk-europa-100x92.698590/
Of course, some elements, first of all, resources, should be changed when adapting this map to a this potential RFCE mod.

Spoiler Here is it's pixel plan :

Comparison between my Europe map and map in RFCE (map plans). Both are 100 tiles wide, but RFCE is 73 tile high and my is 92 tile high. By using different projection (Mercator-like, but less disproportional) my map gives more space in central and northern parts of the map, fitting more cities and even civs (that, I think, more than welcome for mod about Europe), and in general utilises map space better (less ocean). You can notice similarity of British Isles. Shape of Ireland is identical, while Britain is slightly different, but still in same dimensions. On RFCE map British Isles are disproportionately enlarged, while on my map they are more or less realistically proportionate to the rest of Europe. Also, my map includes all of Egypt (Nile up to the first cataract).

Spoiler Comparison between NK Europa and RFCE maps :

Timespan and speed
It seems it is generally agreed that RFCE game should had made last until 1900, not 1800 AD. While there's some point to end game at 1800 (end of "Ancien Regime Europe"), that still feels wrong to end game in middle of time of most dramatic events in European history accompanied with largest wars before WWI. It feels better to end game in 1900, in middle of Belle Époque, when, speaking idyllically, nation-states that unified most of Europe were in "peaceful" competition in prestige of culture, science and economy, seeking to enter new century "with the best score", unaware of storms that were to come. As such, late game during XIXth century should be dominated by several major empire-like civs that unified whole regions of Europe, being the end result of competition between smaller regional civs in previous centuries, just like vanilla Civ game usually is dominated by several major civs in the end of the whole historical timespan. The starting date stays the same, 500 AD, with medieval Europe rising out of still warm ashes of Roman Empire. Gameplay-wise, this date allows greatest freedom in development and city placement, as most of the map is blank and ready to be settled freely.

I never liked "mechanic" of time (de)compression in Civ games. You know, this assumption that 25 years in ancient age are as important as 1 year in modernity. However, with global global timespan in normal Civ that starts in -4000 BC, I understand that this time (de)compression is kinda necessary. In mods with specific geographical and time frames I think this is not necessary, and even detrimental to the immersion (atleast for me), not giving enough time for earlier empires to establish themself and flourish.
As such, for the timespan from 500 to 1900 AD I think two speeds are optimal: Annual, taking one year per turn (1400 turns), and Biannual, taking two years (700 turns). Additionally, not breaking this general course, two last centuries (XVIII and XIX) can last twice as long, half year per turn and one year per turn respectively, giving 1600 and 800 turns in total. This will give more time for civs that made it to the very late game to fully flourish (yes, this contradicts my reasoning against time compression, but I hope you understand why I think this very exception is permissible). So, Biannual speed with 700/800 turns can be called default, while twice longer Annual speed with 1400/1600 turns would be for players who want to immerse themself really deeply and have plenty of free time. Most civs aren't supposed to last all this timespan, of course, with only 1 or 2 exceptions, one of them being France (just like in existing RFCE).

Eras
Rather cosmetic thing. I think there must be 7 eras as following (dates approximate, ingame depend on tech progression): Early Middle Ages (500~1000), High Middle Ages (1000~1300), Late Middle Ages (1300~1450), Renaissance (1450~1550), Reformation (1550~1650/1700), Enlightment (1650/1700~1800/1850), Industrial (1800/1850~1900).
Leaders
One of the reasons I wrote about eras is because I think there should optimally be atleast one leader per each era for every civ (of course, in historical and ingame time frames, and some leaders are "on border" between eras). And with so many leaders and civs, I think vanilla-like animated leaderheads, even though I like their style, must be replaced with static portraits (for most civs there will be no problem with having fancy portraits of monarchs).

Civilizations
After the map, this "ultimate" civ list is my main "contribution" there. I spend some time researching what real historical countries should be represented, how, when and where they should start etc. Defining starting dates was not obvious in some cases, so even if a date is contentious, there are certain historical or gameplay considerations for specifically that date. In some cases alternative starting dates are given. Same goes for starting cities (capitals). More than half of civs are already in existing RFCE and some more are added in RFCE+. Few civs in the list are highly optional and not that necessary. With so many civs problems regarding specific UUs, UBs and UPs emerge. In few cases same UUs, UBs, and UPs can be shared by several civs if they represent same entity broken apart. Even if UUs, UBs and UPs are not defined yet, they still should be added to take their essential place ingame. Some (but not all) civs have their historically important respawn date specified.

Spoiler Civilizations list :

Starting date - name (alternative or actual xml name) - adjective - usual full names - Starting city (English name), other capitals (->changing name), -> Changing capital, (respawn: date, capital, name)
500 – Rhomania (Byzantium) – Romean (Byzantine) – Romean (Byzantine) Empire – Konstantinoupolis (Constantinople)
500 – Visigoths – [Visi]Gothic – Kingdom of the [Visi]Goths – Toletum (Toledo)
(highly optional) 500 – Ostrogoths – Ostrogothic – Kingdom of the Ostrogoths – Ravenna
(highly optional) 500 – Vandals – Vandal – Kingdom of the Vandals [and Alans] – Carthago (Carthage)
500 – Burgundy – Burgundian – Kingdom/Duchy of the Burgundians/Burgundy – Lyon, Arles, Dijon (respawn: 1384, Dijon, as Valois Duchy of Burgundy/Burgundian States)
500 – Austrasia (Lotharingia) – Austrasian (Lotharingian) – Kingdom of Austrasia, Duchy of Lotharingia – Metz
500 – Neustria (France) – Neustrian (French) – Kingdom of Neustria, Kingdom of France – Paris (respawn: 987, Paris, as Capetian Kingdom of France)
568 – Lombardy – Lombard – Kingdom of Longobards/Lombardy, Lombard League, Lordship/Duchy of Milan – (Pavia->) Milan
602/629 – Aquitaine – Aquitanian – Kingdom/Duchy of Aquitaine, County of Toulouse – Tolosa (Toulouse) (respawn: 845, Poitiers as Poitevin Duchy of Aquitaine)
632 – Arabia – Arab – Arab Caliphate /Sultanate/Emirate – al-Madinah (Medina) -> Dimashq (Damascus)
680 – Bulgaria – Bulgar/Bulgarian – Bulgar Khaganate, Bulgarian Tsardom – Pliska (->Preslav), Tyrnovo (respawn: 1185, Tyrnovo, as the second Bulgarian Tsardom)
711 – Andalusia – Moorish/Andalusian – Emirate/Caliphate of Cordoba – Qurtubah (Cordoba) (respawn: 1232, Garnatah (Granada), as Nasrid Emirate of Granada)
756/500 – Holy See – Papal – Papal States – Roma (Rome)
780 – Serbia – Serbian – Principality/Grand Principality/Kingdom of Serbia – Ras, Nish, Skoplje (respawn: 1091, Ras, as Grand Principality of Serbia)
788 – Morocco – Moroccan – Emirate/Sultanate/Caliphate of Morocco – Fas (Fez), Murrakush (Marrakesh)
800 – Ifriqiya (Tunis) – Tunisian – Emirate of Ifriqiya/Tunis – Qayrawan (Kairouan), Tunis (respawn: 1229, Tunis, as Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis)
810 – Venice – Venetian – Most Serene Republic of Venice – Venesia/Venezia (Venice)
825 – Bavaria – Bavarian – Duchy of Bavaria – Regensburg, München
844 – Saxony – Saxon – Duchy of Saxony – Minden (respawn: 1423, Dresden, as Wettin Electorate of Saxony)
(highly optional) 845 – Croatia – Croatian – Principality/Duchy/Kingdom of Croatia – (Sisak->) Zagreb
846/1001 – Tuscany – Tuscan – Marquisate of Tuscany, Republic of Florence, Grand Duchy of Tuscany – Fiorenza (Florence)
864 – Novgorod – Novgorodian – Principality of Novgorod, Lord Novgorod the Great – Novgorod
868 – Egypt – Egyptian – Emirate/Sultanate/Caliphate of Egypt – (al-Qata'i->) al-Qahirah (Cairo)
870/875/880 – Bohemia – Bohemian – Principality/Duchy/Kingdom of Bohemia – Praha (Prague)
872 – Norway – Norwegian/Norse – Kingdom of Norway – Bjørgvín (Bergen), Niðaróss (Nidaros, Trondheim), Ánslo (Oslo)
882 – Kiev – Kievan – Grand Principality of Kiev – Kyjev (Kiev)
895 – Hungary – Hungarian – Grand Principality/Kingdom of Hungary – (Esztergom), Buda
910 – Leon-Castile (Spain) – Castilian/Spanish – Kingdom of Leon/Castile/Spain – Leon, Burgos, Toledo, Madrid
915 – Swabia – Swabian – Duchy of Swabia, Swabian League – Cannstatt (->Stuttgart)
936 – Denmark – Danish – Kingdom of Denmark – Roskilde (->Kjøbenhavn (Copenhagen))
958 – Genoa – Genoese – Most Serene Republic of Genoa – Zêna/Genova (Genoa)
960/843 – Scotland – Scottish – Kingdom of Alba/Scotland – Dùn Èideann (->Edinburgh)
966 – Poland – Polish – Principality/Kingdom of Poland – (Gniezno), Poznan -> Kraków (Cracow) -> Warszawa (Warsaw)
970/996 – Sweden – Swedish – Kingdom of Sweden – Sigtuna (->Stockholm)
(highly optional) – 972 – Barbary (Algeria) – Berber – Berber/Zirid Emirate, Regency of Algiers – Ashir, Tilimsan (Tlemcen), al-Jaza'ir (Algiers) (respawn: 1235, Tilimsan, as Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen)
987 – Polotsk – Polotskian/Polotian/Polochan – Principality of Polotsk – Polotsk
1024 – Chernigov – Chernigovian/Severian – Principality of Chernigov – Chernigov
1054 – [Galicia-]Volhynia – Volhynian – Principality of [Galicia-]Volhynia – Volodimer (Volodymyr), Galich (Halych)
1066 – England – English – Kingdom of England – London
1071 – Sicily – Sicilian – County/Kingdom of Sicily, Kingdom of Naples – Palermu/Palermo, Napuli/Napoli (Naples)
1077 – Rum/Seljuks – Seljuk – Sultanate of Rum – Konya
1097 – Smolensk – Smolenskian/Smolenian/Smolan – Principality of Smolensk – Smolensk
1108 – Suzdal – Suzdalian – Principality of Rostov-Suzdal/Vladimir-Suzdal – Suzhdal' (Suzdal), Vladimir
1137/1169 – Aragon – Aragonese – Kingdom/Crown of Aragona – Zaragoza (Saragossa)
1139 – Portugal – Portuguese – Kingdom of Portugal – Coimbra -> Lisboa (Lisbon)
1201 – Livonia – Livonian – State of Livonian/Teutonic Order, Livonian Confederation – Riga
1236 – Lithuania – Lithuanian – Grand Duchy of Lithuania – (Trakai/Troki), Vilna/Vilnius
1282 – Austria – Austrian – Archduchy of Austria, Habsburg Monarchy – Wien (Vienna)
(optional, but needed for Romania) 1310 – Wallachia (Rumania) – Wallachian (Rumanian) – Principality of Wallachia – Târgoviste (->Bucuresti (Bucharest))
1330 – Ottomans – Ottoman – Ottoman Beylik/Sultanate/ Sublime Ottoman State – Bursa (Proussa) -> Edirne (Adrianople) -> Kostantiniyye (Constantinople, Istanbul)
1331/1363 – Muscovy (Russia) – Muscovite/Russian – Grand Principality of Moscow, Tsardom of Russia, Russian Empire – Moskva (Moscow), Sankt-Peterburg (Saint Petersburg)
1346 – Moldavia – Moldavian – Principality of Moldavia – Suceava -> Iasi
1416 – Savoy – Savoyard – Duchy of Savoy, Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia – Turin/Torino
1441 – Crimea – Crimean/Tatar – Khanate of Crimea and Desht-i Kipchak – Baghchasaray
(optional) 1550 – Ukraine – Ukrainian – Hetmanate of the Zaporogian Host – Chyhyryn, Baturyn, Hlukhiv
1579 – Netherlands – Dutch – Republic of the United Netherlands – Amsterdam
1618/1525 – [Brandenburg-]Prussia – Prussian – Electorate of Brandenburg-Duchy of Prussia, Kingdom of Prussia – Berlin

In total, there are 57 civs in the list, including 4 highly optional and 2 optional civs, leaving 51. Of these, 27 civs are present in RFCE, + unplayable Pope, while additional 5 (if I remember correctly) are present in RFCE+.

Spoiler Civs by regions :

Britain: England, Scotland
"Gallia" (France): France, Burgundy, Aquitaine
Iberia: Visigoths, Andalusia, Spain, Aragon, Portugal
Italy: Holy See, (Ostrogoths), Lombardy, Venice, Tuscany, Genoa, Sicily, Savoy
Germany: Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony, Swabia, Austria, Prussia + Netherlands
Scandinavia: Norway, Denmark, Sweden
East-Central Europe: Bohemia, Hungary, Poland, Livonia (also can be considered among two regions above), Lithuania (also can be considered as Rus)
Rus: Novgorod, Kiev, Polotsk, Chernigov, Volhynia, Smolensk, Suzdal, Muscovy, Ukraine
Balkans(&Romania): Byzantium, Bulgaria, Serbia, (Croatia), Wallachia, Moldavia
Middle East (Asia): Arabia, Rum, Ottomans, + Crimea
North Africa: (Vandals), Morocco, Tunis, Egypt, (Barbary)

Spoiler Some words on gameplay in various regions :

FRANCIA
Perhaps first major difference will be in Western Europe. In RFCE you start as lonely France, and gradually settle and conquer cities, trying not to lose them to occasional barbarians, pretty much until Burgundy and Germany spawn in 843 and 856. In my potential view France with capital in Paris, as Neustria, starts together with Austrasia (Lotharingia) (Metz) and Burgundy (Lyon), soon to be joined by Aquitaine (Toulouse). These four civs represent 4 general kingdoms of the Frankish realm, that were constantly unifying and breaking apart. Because it is impossible to represent such messy politics in Civ (there's Crusader Kings for that), I think having 4 civs is optimal for that. They gradually will settle (with great variety of city placement) and develop land, with often overlapping settler maps, causing messy borders and conflicts in Gallia, while Austrasia will also settle and expand in Germany, mostly along Rhine and Danube. While France, Burgundy and Aquitaine have their historical victory goals later, Lotharingia will have building Carolingian empire, by control and vassalisation, as its historical goal, along with Carolingian renaissance.

Well, what ended up below is a bit longer and messier that I expected...

IBERIA-HISPANIA
While four kingdoms of the Frankish realm will be having fun to the north, south of Pyrenees Visigothic kingdom will develop. Yes, Visigoths lost Aquitaine and their original capital Tolosa (Toulouse) only in 507, but for the sake of convenience they will start in Toletum (Toledo) in 500 AD. Over 200 years of their historical ingame timespan, Visigoths will found major cities in Iberia, like Emerita (Merida), Olissippo (Lisbon), Valentia (Valencia), Barcino (Barcelona), Saracosta (Saragossa), sometimes choosing between alternatives, like Hispalis (Sevilla) or Gades (Cadiz), etc. I think one of Visigoths' historical goals cab be "reclaiming Gothic legacy", getting control not only over Iberia, but also Aquitaine, Provence and Italy, forging something like Gothic empire.
Visigothic prosperity must end in 711, when Andalusia civ will spawn in Qurtubah (Cordoba) with overwhelming starting force, flipping one half of Iberia and swiftly conquering another. After that gameplay is pretty similar to exiting RFCE, Andalusian Emirate/Caliphate of Cordoba will have its 200 "peaceful" years, when it will found cities that Visigoths hadn't found oriniginally, including alternatives, like Batalyaws (Badajoz) if there's no Merida, Mursiyah (Murcia) if there's Cartagena etc.
In 910 Leon-Castile (Spain) will spawn in Leon and expand across northern Iberia, and after that will drive south for Reconquista. While Leon-Castile attacks from the north, from the south Morocco will cross Gibraltar strait to conquer Andalusia, which should start to crumble into independent city-states by that time. Later Aragon will spawn in 1137 (earlier starting date represents effective dynastic union that preceded formal unification of Kingdom of Aragon and County of Barcelona into Crown of Aragon in 1164) in Saragossa, and Portugal in 1139 in Coimbra (first capital of the kingdom), both will have their share of cities for reconquista. Finally, in 1232 Andalusia should respawn in Garnatah (Granada) to represent final Muslim state on the peninsula, mostly limited to Granada, Malaga and few cities, like Murcia, around.

ITALIA
Italy starts with some independent cities (unless there's Ostorgothic civ), surely including Syracuse, Neapolis (Naples), Pisa, and, perhaps, Ravenna or Bolonia (Bologna), Mediolanum (Milan), Panormus (Palermo) and Messina. Papal States can start either in 500 (if not, Roma starts as independent) or, more probably, in 756 (when Frankish King Pepin the Short gave Pope temporal power over lands in central Italy). Papal States will have truly unique gameplay revolving around their UU, Cardinal, that is sort of visible spy with wide range of missions depending on presence of Catholicism in a city and civ's state religion, with most of Papal mechanics of RFCE delegated to this unique unit.
In 568 first "proper" Italian civ spawns: Lombardy, with capital in Pavia/Milan (perhaps the city should just rename), seeking to dominate the peninsula, followed by "city-states" of Venice, Tuscany and Genoa in 810, 846, and 958. Earlier start date for Genoa is the year when city of Genoa recieved its freedom, autonomy and power over surrounding lands. Tuscany starts in Fiorenza (Florence), flipping second city in Tuscany province, preexisting Pisa, that will serve as the civ's port city; as Marquisate (March) of Tuscany under Matilda of Canossa. Yes, Marquisate of Tuscany desintegrated into several city state republics like Florence, Pisa, Lucca and Siena that spend most of Middle Ages quarreling and even fighting each other until Florence eventually reunified Tuscany, but I think with Civ and RFC limitations they all can be represented by a single civ, with shift from (and later back to) unified monarchy to republics being represented by change of civics. These Italian city-state civs should be economic and cultural powerhouse well into Renaissance era, despite their size, so they should have some extra buffs to compete with larger civs.
While northern half of Italy is divided between 5 civs, the south will be battleground between Byzantine, Arab and Papal influence until Sicily civ start in 1071 (preceded by Norman barbarians from 1040s) in Palermo, flipping the island, as County of Sicily, but not the mainland, that it should conquer, along with some other territories around, as its first historical goal. Sicily further represents unified and divided, sovereign and vassalised, Kingdoms of Sicily and Naples, that lasted well until mid XIX century as Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, when it was overthrown by Garibaldi and merged into Kingdom of Italy. Finally, Savoy starts in 1416 in Turin as Duchy of Savoy (or in 1313 as County of Savoy), flipping Geneva as well, lands of which, County of Geneva, were part of Savoyard realm, while city itself had complex, vassal-like relations until "Calvinist revolution" during the Reformation. Small Savoy civ in the very north-west of Italy will have unification of Italy as one of its historical goals.

BALKANS AND ROMANIA
Not so much changes with Byzantium gameplay initially, I only think that it may have even stronger start with more developed cities only to face even more stronger barbarian attacks. Also, I think Rhomania and Romean are nice compromise name and adjective for that civ. After some waves of Avar, Slav and other barbarians in Balkans, Byzantium will face first other civ there, just as in existing RFCE - Bulgaria starts in 680, initially as pagan Bulgar Khaganate with capital in Pliska, that renames to Preslav as Bulgaria converts to Orthodoxy and becomes Tsardom. Just like in RFCE, Bulgaria will be main inland Balkan civ.
Hundred years later, in 780, Serbia starts with Ras as its capital in mountainous area between modern Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia, contesting nearby cities Nish, Skoplje and Belgrade with its neighbours. Serbia provides nice competitor to Bulgaria in Balkans and can become empire of its own later, like in real history.
Highly optionally, Croatia can be added, starting in 845 in Sisak/Zagreb plot. Even though Kingdom of Croatia was centered around inland Dalmatia, it eventually took control of "Slavonian" Sisak and Zagreb, although it was vassalised by Hungary arpund 1100, Croatia kept its autonomy for centuries, and can serve as nice minor buffer state between Hungary, Serbia, Venice and later Austria, and as a vassal of one of them.
Much later, in 1310 Wallachia can spawn, followed by Moldavia in 1346. Deciding which one is more important to represent Romania is a bit tricky. Moldavia was generally more powerful and important in pre-modern times, while Wallachia would eventually play leading role in unifying Romania, but also produced notable leaders like Vlad the Impaler or Mihai the Brave. Both would have around 2-4 cities in their core areas. So, I think both Wallachia and Moldavia should be present, especially considering their more or less continuous existence for centuries, they can serve as a nice buffer and vassal states between Hungary, Ottomans, Poland and other major civs.

MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA
Speaking briefly here, Arabia, like in existing RFCE, starts in 632, but not in Dimashq (Damascus), but in al-Madinah (Medina), then flipping most of Syria controlled by Byzantium at the start of the game, and AI Arabia gets its capital automatically relocated to Damascus. From this base, Arabia should expand, conquering rest of Syria, along with Egypt and beyond, becoming major military adversary to the Byzantium. After that, peculiar trend can be noticed as other Arab Muslim civs spawn from farthest to nearest to Arabia, starting with Andalusia in 711, then Morocco in 788, Ifriqiya (Tunis) in 800, Egypt in 868, and, optionally, also Barbary in 972.
I never liked that Morocco starts in 1040 in RFCE (as Almoravids), it felt a bit rushed considering both the need to develop and goal of conquering al-Andalus. Moreover, that's Idrisid dynasty that is traditionally considered as the founding of country of Morocco, so Morocco should start in 788 in Fas (Fez), having much more time to develop and expand.
Tunis, or more specifically Ifriqiya, starts in 800 representing Aghlabid Emirate - the first effectively independent (even though nominally and religiously Abbasid vassal) state in Tunisia after Arabic Islamic conquest, with capital in Qayrawan (Kairouan), major cultural and political center of eastern Maghrib. Similarly to Morocco and al-Andalus, Tunis will have historical goal of conquering Sicily, Southern Italy and maybe even Sardinia by 900 or 1000 AD.
Egypt starts in 868, representing Tulunid Emirate, the first independent, and Islamic, Egyptian state since the Ptolemaic dynasty, with capital in Qata'i that should soon rename to al-Qahirah (Cairo). There's no optimal way to represent Fatimid Caliphate, that overthrew Aghlabids in Ifriqiya, expanded and quickly conquered Egypt and Syria, founded and moved its capital to Cairo. So, all civs represent some continuous polity centered in a specific region (what I mean, is that civs are given historically correct starting date, but after that their development is not strictly historical, just follows realistic course generally based on real regimes it represents. That principle is reflected in names: there should be no specific dynastic names, like Tulunid Emirate, Fatimid Caliphate or Ayyubid Sultanate, but Emirate/Caliphate/Sultanate of Egypt instead. The only exception are civs that are defined by specific dynasty, like Ottomans. Dynastic names still can be used for historical goals, though). As such, Egypt represents... Egypt and any polity based in it.
Highly optionally, Barbary can be added and start in 972 in Ashir, representing Zirid dynasty and other polities based in central Maghrib, and later also Regency of Algiers, effectively independent Ottoman vassal, famous for its corsairs.
After 5-6 Arab (or Arab-Berber) civs emerge across southern Mediterranean, first Turkic Islamic civ spawns - Rum (or Seljuks) in 1077 in Konya, flipping most of inland Anatolia, becoming major adversary to Byzantium. After Rum second Turkic civ appears - Ottomans in Bursa in 1330 (moving their capital to Edirne and Constantinople on conquest), flipping north-western corner of Anatolia, that should conquer Anatolia, Balkans and beyond and become one of the leading civs. Third Turkic civ to emerge is Crimea in 1441, that should be worthy successor to the Golden Horde (represented by barbarians and special mechanics), particularly keeping Pontic steppes and nearby regions free of foreign cities, be them Russian, Ukrainian, Polish or other.

GERMANIA
Returning to Europe. There will be no Germany civ, instead it should be represented by several civs. As such, I think it's not very good that there are both Germany and Austria civs as separate in existing RFCE. Austria rarely plays well, while Germany usually survives past supposed disintegration of HRE as major civ. Even colours and icon of Germany suggest that it just should had its capital relocated to Vienna, without having separate Austria civ...
As described above, Lotharingia, initially as Austrasia, will be sole German civ from start of the game, gradually expanding across Rhine and Danube. There it will meet some independent cities (that still should allow some freedom in city placement) representing so called old stem duchies of Alamannia, Bavaria, Saxonia and Thuringia that Austrasia (Lotharingia) must conquer in order to fulfil its historical victory goal of Carolingian empire. Only after that new German civs emerge, representing "younger" stem duchies that developed feudalism and are fully christianised. First of them will be Bavaria, spawning in 825 at Regensburg, representing initial domain of Louis the German, who soon became first king of East Francia (Germany), that was emerging out of Carolingian empire that was breaking apart already before the treaty of Verdun. This Bavarian civ should flip/expand into modern day Austria and other neighbouring territories, and also try to get dominance in the Germany itself. Later, it represents Duchy, Electorate and Kingdom of Bavaria with more familiar borders inside Germany.
Soon, Bavaria and Lotharingia should be joined by next German civ - Saxony, that should spawn in 844 in Minden (determining start location of this stem duchy was not easy, but Minden is the oldest bishopic and seems to be main political center there, right in the middle of Lower Saxony. Later it can be renamed to Hannover that is located approximately in this tile too). Saxony is intended to be territorially large. It has largest core area of all stem duchies, covering most of northern/lower Germany, with such cities as Minden, Münster, Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck and Magdeburg. Later it should represent German expansion to the east (Ostsiedlung) by settling, or conquering, cities in eastern Germany, Pomerania and Silesia, as well as influence of Hanseatic league. It also should try to get dominance in the Germany itself, representing Ottonian dynasty reign. In real history this mighty stem duchy came to an end in 1180 when it was broken apart by Frederick Barbarossa after conflict with Saxon (and Bavarian) duke Henry the Lion. However, the name Saxony survived and by dynastic relations was carried over to lands of Meissen-Lusatia. Here, in 1423, in Dresden, Saxony civ should respawn as Electorate of Saxony under Wettin dynasty to continue being regional power.
After Lotharingia, Bavaria and Saxony there should be another German stem duchy civ - Swabia, spawning in 915 at Cannstatt (historically important center in the Neckar valley, now suburb of Stuttgart. Cannstatt should rename to Stuttgart later in game). This civ, beside region of Swabia, should flip/expand into modern day Switzerland, Alsace, Franconia and beyond. This civ primarily represents imperial Hohenstaufen dynasty with its most famous leader being Frederick Barbarossa. Later it also can represent Swabian League and Duchy/Kingdom of Württemberg with capital at Stuttgart.
With stem duchy civs of Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia specified, I think it's time to write some thoughts on Holy Roman Empire. I think it should be represented as Apostolic palace or UN like mechanic, with many (Catholic and Protestant) civs being able to enter it even if they weren't part of HRE in real history (perhaps AI should have some additional parameter influencing it's willingness to enter HRE). Most basic function of HRE must be "soft" defensive pact. Each time one of member civs gets attacked, all other will get popup on next turn, asking if they will declare war on the aggressor, with decision influencing relation with other HRE members. Also, wars between member civs should be discouraged in some way, and all member civs should have open borders with each other automatically. All this should encourage smaller German and Italian civs to enter for common protection, while discouraging larger civs like France or Poland. Additional mechanics are tied to imperial elections, with elected emperor being able to set propositions for voting, like declaring war or settling peace between member and external civs, raising imperial army (member civs donate units to the emperor), changing city ownership between member civs etc. Founding of HRE should perhaps be triggered by building some wonder like Imperial Diet. Also, there can be some hidden company- or religion-like thing determining membership of individual cities and civs.
While Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia represent "early" German civs (with Lotharingia being "very old"), there are two "later" German civs that should compete over influence in Germany and Europe. First one is Austria, that, like in existing RFCE, starts in 1282 in Wien (Vienna), representing Habsburgs taking over the Duchy of Austria and Styria to later expand their influence far beyond. Owing to near continuous hold of Holy Roman Emperor title by Habsburgs, Austria likely should have some diplomatic bonuses to HRE mechanic, as well as some representation of effective dynastic marriages and inheritance. On spawn, Austria civ should flip Austria, Styria and, optionally, also Tyrol.
Second one is Prussia, that starts in Berlin either in 1525 or in 1618, flipping disconnected Brandenburg and Prussia provinces. 1618 is pretty clear: that's when Brandenburg and Prussia were unified into one state with capital in Berlin, that soon started its gradual expansion into Pomerania and other nearby lands. 1525 is a bit complicated. In that year State of Teutonic Order in Prussia was dissolved and it became secularised Lutheran Duchy of Prussia under one branch of Hohenzollern family, still under Polish suzerainty, while Brandenburg was ruled by another Hohenzollern family branch (that in 1618 took Duchy of Prussia as well) since 1415, also became Lutheran around that time, but both Brandenburg and Prussia remained with separate rulers and governments. How much historical simplification for 1525 is permissible is open question. With 1525 Prussia can have one interesting advantage though: because Wittenberg is nearby Berlin on my map, Prussia on spawn can found Protestantism and trigger Reformation events if no Protestantism wasn't wasn't found before (in real history Reformation started just few years before). This will not only forcefully trigger Reformation events on historically accurate time, but also give Berlin major bonus to culture (and I think Protestantism (Lutheranism) was quite defining characteristic of Prussia IRL). Regardless of starting date, Prussia should have UP that significantly boosts its military capabilities (simple +25-50% to military unit production?) allowing it to successfully expand by conquest from two initial cities of Berlin and Königsberg. And one of Prussia's historical goals should be unifying Germany as German Empire by control and vassalisation, from humble starting, like Savoy unifying Italy.
Similarly to existing RFCE, in 1579 Netherlands spawn, flipping territory of Union of Utrecht.
Potentially there can be Switzerland civ, starting in 1315 or 1353, but it would have only prefounded and flipped city (Bern/Zürich/Konstanz/Basel) as its capital, beside Geneva that it will acquire later. But maybe it can be useful to have this small, completely unexpansionistic civ to take up the area that it controlled for centuries?

England starting with Norman conquest in 1066 and Scotland starting in 960/843 are pretty much the same civ-wise as in existing RFCE.
Scandinavian civs are mostly the same too. Norway starts in 872, but in Bjørgvín (renamed to Bergen later), allowing choice between founding Túnsberg or Oslo, and also because initial center of unified Norway was in western part of the country. Denmark starts in 936 in Roskilde (later renamed to Kjøbenhavn). Most notable difference is that Sweden will start in 970/996 as pagan kingdom, like Denmark and Norway, with capital in Sigtuna (that later is renamed to Stockholm).

EAST CENTRAL EUROPE
Hungary starting in 895 in Buda, Poland starting in 966 in Poznan, and Lithuania starting in 1236 in Vilna/Vilnius are more or less the same civ-wise and historically as in existing RFCE (specific changes are outside this post).
First of new civs in East Central Europe, and first one by starting date, is Bohemia starting in 870/875/880 in Praha (Prague). I think there's no need to tell much about historical significance of this mid-size civ, that should expand into Moravia (is part of the core area along with Bohemia province), Silesia, Lusatia and other neighbouring provinces and play crucial role in history of Central Europe.
As Prussia is intended to be the later Lutheran Berlin-centered state, role of German Baltic crusaders is now bestowed upon Livonia civ, spawning in 1201 in Riga. This civ primarily represents historical country that is usually know as Terra Mariana, dominated by Baltic Germans and populated by Latvians, Estonians and other peoples, but also other Baltic German regions like Medieval Prussia. Main political and military organising force of Terra Mariana were military orders, atleast initially. While original Livonia-based Order of the Brethren of the Sword was merged into Prussia-based Teutonic Order after defeat by Samogitians/Lithuanians at the battle of Saule as autonomous Livonian Order, main economic and cultural center of Baltic Germans always remained in Riga, while practically independent Livonian Order actually outlived Prussia-based State of Teutonic Order. What I'm trying to say, is that in Civ mechanics main "center of the civilization" always remained in Riga and Livonia. Even after State of Teutonic Order lost crucial battle of Grunwald to Poland-Lithuania and became, along with Prussia itself, subjugated to Poland, Livonia and Livonian Order actually continued to exist independently as Livonian Confederation, well until it was divided in late XVI century between Poland-Lithuania and Sweden after the Livonian war in which Russia failed to conquer Livonia. Gameplay-wise, Livonia starts in Riga with Livland and Courland as its core provinces, soon expanding into Estland, Prussia and into Lithuania. I suppose it's UB should be "Brick Castle", cheaper castle that doesn't require stone and provides some additional military or economic bonus (like +1 trade route to represent role of Livonia in Baltic trade), and UU should be "Livonian Knight" an infantry counterpart to mounted Teutonic Knight that is provided by Teutonic Order corporation.

RUS
Finally, the final region. While it is impossible to fully represent Rurikid dynastic shenanigans (similar to Frankish/French and German ones) with Civ mechanics, I designated several crucial Rus principalities, in addition to Kiev and Novgorod already present in RFCE.
Like in existing RFCE, Novgorod starting in 864 and Kiev starting in 882 remain earliest among Rus civs. Novgorod will expand in north-eastern corner of the map, around Ladoga and Onega lakes and along Onega and Northern Dvina rivers, and to lesser extent among upper Volga. Kiev will expand across middle and upper Dnieper, its Pripyat and Desna tributaries, and farther west into Galicia and Volhynia, and farther east along Oka and Volga rivers. While expanding on their own for first 150-200 years, later other Rus principalities will spawn and flip cities founded by Kiev and, in few cases, Novgorod, representing how gradual expansion and development of new lands led to emergence of new economic and cultural centers of power that in turn served as base for new Rus principalities breaking from Grand Principality of Kiev.
First of these principalities is Polotsk spawning in 987. Polotsk is one of oldest Rus cities and was powerful economic and cultural center, other important cities of the principality include Vitebsk and Minsk. Principality of Polotsk was the first one to break away from Grand Principality of Kiev, establishing its own branch of Rurikids already in times of Kievan Prince Vladimir the Great/Saint. For most part it stayed away from intense struggle for the seat of grand prince in Kiev, unlike other Rus principalities. It gradually developed its lands and established relation with other countries. Later it disintegrated into principalities of Polotsk, Vitebsk and Minsk by XIII century, that were ultimately absorbed into Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Today Principality of Polotsk is regarded as main precursor of Belarus among Rus principalities. Ingame Polotsk will settle cities in modern day Belarus, that later should be taken over by Lithuania, providing it with good starting basis.
Second of principalities is Chernigov spawning in 1024. Chernigov was extremely important political, cultural and economic center, competing with Kiev itself, starting from pre-Rus times when it was center of Severian Slavic tribes. It had lands both vast and well populated, stretching from Chernigov to the east along Desna, Seym and Oka rivers all the way to Ryazan and Murom. It remained one of major principalities by the time of the Mongol invasion, from which it suffered greatly due to its location close to the steppes. Ingame, Chernigov will flip all cities Kiev settled to the east of Dnieper river, and found many cities in modern day northern Ukraine, south-eastern Belarus and southern Central Russia, that later will be taken by Muscovite Russia and Poland-Lithuania, with Chernigov itself becoming focal point of wars between these states in real history. Some historical fact: because of numerous local principalities that vast Chernigov disintegrated into, a lot of Rurikid Russian noble families trace their lineage to princes of Chernigov, more than any other Rus principality.
Third of principalities is Volhynia, spawning in 1054 in Volodimer (know in Ukrainian as Volodymyr-Volynsky and in Polish as Wlodzimierz). Volhynia had close relations with another western Rus principality of Galicia, with which it ultimately unified into Principality of Galicia-Volhynia (aka Halych-Volyn) that remained major regional power well into XIV century when it was ultimately divided between Poland and Lithuania. Some Galich-Volhynian princes even claimed title King of Rus(sia) trying to stay equal to Poland and Hungary. That's why Polish Voivodeship with capital in Lwów was known as Ruskie. Today Principality of Galicia-Volhynia/Halych-Volyn is regarded as main successor to Kievan Rus by Ukrainian national historiography. Ingame, while Chernigov will flip all Kievan cities to the east, Volhynia will flip most Kievan cities to the west, settling some more, in modern day western Ukraine, easternmost Poland and south-western Belarus. Galicia-Volhynia will have to form relations with neighbouring major civs of Poland, Hungary and, later, Lithuania, that in real history all tried to dominate this principality, ultimately dividing it.
Fourth of principalities is Smolensk, spawning in 1097. Smolensk is one of oldest Rus cities, and was one of most important cultural and economic centers. Located in the middle of Rus lands, on upper Dnieper river, controlling trade routes between Kiev and Novgorod, and later between Lithuania and Muscovy, the city and principality had important strategic role. Princes of Smolensk were among the most powerful in Rus, often competing with other princes for the seat of Grand Principality in Kiev. Smolensk was largely spared from Mongol invasion thanks to its more remote location, and continued to be unified and strong principality well into XIV century, when it became an important buffer state between rising powers of Lithuania and Muscovy. Lithuania eventually vassalised and absorbed Smolensk, but Muscovy captured the city soon after, making Smolensk one of focal point of conflict between Poland-Lithuania and Muscovite Russia in XVI-XVII centuries. Ingame, Smolensk will flip and settle cities in the center of Rus lands, in modern day western Central Russia and eastern Belarus.
Fifth, and last, of Rus principalities is Suzdal, spawning in 1108 in Suzdal. Despite its later emergence, Principality of Rostov-Suzdal, known later as Vladimir-Suzdal quickly became leading principality among Rus lands thanks to its huge and safe lands between Oka and Volga rivers, that attracted many settlers from older Rus lands around Kiev and Chernigov, that were ravaged more and more often my steppe nomads and infighting between Rus princes. The oldest city and early center of this principality is Rostov, one of oldest Rus cities in general, followed by Suzdal. Later, new capital of Vladimir was built by Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky, who also sacked Kiev, but, unlike other Rus princes, didn't made it his new capital, instead making Vladimir new seat of Grand Prince, detaching hegemony in Rus from the old capital of Kiev that signalled ultimate disintegration of Rus into several independent principalities. Burgeoning Grand Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal was hit hard by Mongol invasion, that led to its disintegration by late XIII century, even though title of Grand Prince of Vladimir was seen as paramount among all Rus princes, atleast in north-eastern half of Rus lands. Among many local principalities that Vladimir-Suzdal broke into, there was one centered on wooden "castle-town" named Moskov, that quickly grew to become new leading center in Vladimir-Suzdalian lands and, eventually, grew into Grand Principality of Muscovy, Tsardom of Russia and, ultimately, Russian Empire. As such, Vladimir-Suzdal is traditionally seen as main successor to Kievan Rus in Russian historiography and precursor to centralised Muscovite Russian state. Ingame, Suzdal will flip and settle largest area of all Rus civs (secondly only to Novgorod with its vast forests) located in modern day Central Russia, between (and along) Volga and Oka rivers.
While most of western Rus lands were unified by Grand Duchy of Lithuania, in the east, out of disintegrated Vladimir-Suzdal, Principality of Moscow/Muscovy emerged, spawning 1331/1361 when Muscovite princes secured title of Grand Prince of Vladimir for themself, asserting leading role over other principalities there by late XIV century. Later, by the end of XV century Muscovite Grand Prince Ivan III managed to ultimately shackle off Tatar yoke over north-eastern Rus lands, and consolidated Suzdalian principalities along with boyar Republic of Novgorod into Grand Principality of Muscovy, that soon became Tsardom of Russia (even though Ivan III the Great used title of tsar personally, it wasn't formally adopted until coronation of his grandson Ivan IV, later know as the Terrible). By using combination of military force and his personal prestige Ivan III also managed to take one third of territory of G.D. of Lithuania. Despite many turbulent times, Grand Principality of Muscovy, turned into Tsardom of Russia, later turned into Russian Empire, that managed to unify most of old Rus lands and other parts of Eastern Europe into the largest European state by XIX century.
While monarchs of Muscovy, Lithuania and Poland were dividing lands of Rus to the north, to the south, in fertile yet dangerous forest-steppe borderlands people started to organise themself as Cossacks, to defend from constant Tatar raids. As such, optionally, Ukraine can spawn in 1550 at Chyhyryn to represent Ukrainian Zaporogian Cossacks and their Hetmanate. While precise events that led to emergence of the Cossack Hetmanate are obscure (activities of Dmytro Vyshenetsky in 1550s can be seen as one of such), by late XVI century Dnieper Cossacks clearly emerged as force of its own, even if initially it was usually under Polish-Lithuanian suzerainty. Dissatisfied with their vassal/secondary class status in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Cossacks started several rebellions in first half of XVII century, culminating in the great rebellion of Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who managed to secure independent government for Hetmanate on both banks of Dnieper, and even tried to spread his power westwards all the way to Galicia and Volhynia. After some setbacks, Bohdan Khmelnytsky decided to switch formal suzerainty from Poland-Lithuania to Tsardom of Russia starting great Polish-Russian (and later -Swedish) war, during and after which Hetmanate was constantly dividing and reunifying into 2-3 parts, changing sides between Russia, Poland and Ottomans. Only in the East bank of Dnieper Hetmanate eventually stabilised under Russian suzerainty, forming uneasy relations with more and more absolutist Russian monarchy. Hetmanate seen new period of prosperity under Hetman Mazepa, who was an ally and friend of Peter the Great, but eventually "reasonably miscalculated" and switched sides to so far victorious Karl XII of Sweden, only to share his defeat at Poltava. Even though most Cossacks remained loyal to Peter, he largely diminished Cossack autonomy and Hetmanate government was gradually superseded by imperial governorates and bureaucracy until largely nominal Hetmanate was abolished by Catherine II, while Cossack elite was largely integrated into Russian nobility. Despite this, memory of "free Cossack times" persisted and became, even if somewhat mythologised, main basis of Ukrainian national identity in XIX century and beyond. Ingame, Ukraine will start on the very border with steppe, founding or flipping several cities prefounded by Kiev, Chernigov, Lithuania or Muscovy on both sides of Dnieper, south of Kiev and Chernigov. As its first historical goal it must get control of Chernigov/Severia, Kiev, Podolia, Volhynia and Galicia provinces as well, representing ultimate aspirations of Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Meanwhile, it also should defend itself from Crimean attacks from the south, and possibly expand to east and south as well.
While general historical outcome should be more likely (Muscovy and Lithuania clearly will have the strongest start to realistically become major powers), it also should be possible, especially for human player, to make any of Rus civs dominant and make Russia with capital not in Moscow, but in Vilna or Kiev, or even in Smolensk, Chernigov or other Rus civ capital. I hope you got what I mean.

Well, in conclusion of this post. I'm clearly not so professional in modmaking to make, or even start alone, this potential alternative of RFCE (I think it can be called RFCEuropa to differ from existing RFCEurope), and I think the map I made, along with ultimate list of civs and general application of historical knowledge to gameplay, are the best contributions I can make, atleast so far. If this RFCEuropa somehow gets started by someone, I will be happy to make city maps and other ingame maps, as I already made city per every tile maps for most regions (yes, we all have some strange hobbies), and generally contribute in ways that do not require advanced coding (I generally learnt XML modding so far). Also, I generally thought out and made some sketches for 1000, 1500 and 1700 AD scenarios, that I think should be present alongside basic 500 AD.
I again hope to not be seen as delusional with the idea of this post.

 

[Gen1_]

I know RFC3E has been planned, but I dont know if it's still active. I thought so though.

 

[manio curio]

@Gen1_ :The last pull request for RFC3E is dated September 2024, which seems to point to the project being inactive. @Nikas Kunitz : in my opinion the only way to bring it back to life is to hire someone to work on it, very difficult since it would require quite some money, but at this point no one is coming through the door willing to mod for free on this.

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

@Gen1_ :The last pull request for RFC3E is dated September 2024, which seems to point to the project being inactive. @Nikas Kunitz : in my opinion the only way to bring it back to life is to hire someone to work on it, very difficult since it would require quite some money, but at this point no one is coming through the door willing to mod for free on this.

Well, I don't think hiring a coder would be useful. Don't misunderstand what I mean, but I think someone who would make this mod for money wouldn't be as personally involved, so to speak, as someone who is genuinely interested in it to do so voluntarily. Though, chipping in to pay incentivise someone already interested could be an option... still seeming strange to me. Anyway, hoping someone with good modding experience will got interested seems to be the only realistic option.
By the way, what happened to AbsintheRed, why he left the forum back in 2021?
And also, what do you think of my ideas? The map and civ list? Does it conceive an image of potential gameplay in mind?

 

[manio curio]

I have no idea on what happened to absinthe red, I read your ideas, I can only comment on Italian history which I know well and it doesn't seem feasible to have 5 civs in northern Italy, especially Lombardy and Florence which would basically have 1 city only. Adding Savoy would only make things worse, you would end up with plenty of unproductive cities. Unfortunately you can only go so far as being historically accurate, the map resolution as well as game mechanics limitations will force you to make some approximations.

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

I have no idea on what happened to absinthe red, I read your ideas, I can only comment on Italian history which I know well and it doesn't seem feasible to have 5 civs in northern Italy, especially Lombardy and Florence which would basically have 1 city only. Adding Savoy would only make things worse, you would end up with plenty of unproductive cities. Unfortunately you can only go so far as being historically accurate, the map resolution as well as game mechanics limitations will force you to make some approximations.

Well, I tried to design my map to make it possible. Among other things, Padanian plain in such scenario supposed to be grassland terrain covered with floodplains, that's both realistic and provides inland cities with huge growth bonus and allows you to cover tiles without resources with cottages-towns to represent how densely populated the region was and is. Other than that, North Italian civs are intended to have some additional production/commerce buffs in their capitals likely as some merchant republic/city-state civics.
Also, some (2 for sure) of these civs not really meant to coexist for long time. Lombardy spawns early in 568 and is meant to dominate North Italy unilaterally until Venice, Tuscany and Genoa spawn in IX-X centuries, with Venice and Genoa pretty much intended to be city-states expanding for most part overseas, while Tuscany is pretty much "bi-city-state" of Florence and Pisa, with possible Pisan colonies in Corsica and Sardinia, competing with Genoa. Meanwhile Lombardy will continue to hold inland cities until its likely conquest by Italian neighbours or some German or French invasion in middle/late Middle Ages (Visconti Lordship/Duchy of Milan is pretty much the last entity intended to be portrayed by Lombardy civ). Savoy spawns much later in Turin and will flip Geneva to give it some additional city, with both player and AI likely prioritising getting Milan and Genoa as soon as possible. All in all, these civs should be small but rather powerful, especially in first half of the timeline.
Here is my city placement sketch for 1500 AD scenario made some time ago, showing cities that are intended to exist throughout the game (also, I suppose that some mechanic that can make certain cities unrazeable should be added, like in Sword of Islam). Lombardy civ doesn't exist with Milan just passed (1499) under control of France, that starts Italian wars by being at war with Kingdom of Naples to the south at the start of the scenario.

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Made province map with names, with RFCE in mind.
P.S. if you hadn't checked, you can play with province and other maps in image editor using map plan included in the download package of my Europe map.

 

[manio curio]

My bad @Nikas Kunitz I didn't realize your map had more room in Italy. If we get rid of Bonomia then we are almost there, maybe Ancona and Pisa could stay.

 

[voigt]

@Gen1_ :The last pull request for RFC3E is dated September 2024, which seems to point to the project being inactive. @Nikas Kunitz : in my opinion the only way to bring it back to life is to hire someone to work on it, very difficult since it would require quite some money, but at this point no one is coming through the door willing to mod for free on this.

Hey, I haven't actually had time to be active on this project since last fall, as much as I'd like to. I spent over 300+ hours in 2023 and 2024 on this project and did most of the chore tasks I had planned but I knew the whole legacy would be very difficult for one person to tackle. And to be honest, the amount of work just to clean up the code base demotivated me...

It would be really cool to start another project for an RFC mod from Europe.

I think the best way to handle the code part of this project would be to start from a new Civ 4 RFC code base. Or, even better, to directly fork the Dawn of Civilization RFC codebase, which has a very active and clean codebase (Python and C++). I'm talking about the utils/helpers and so on that help define all the gameplay legacies (I'm talking about all the UI enhancements, speed optimizations, randomness, game events, etc...). The current problem with the RFCE/RFC3E code base is that a lot of data is hard-coded, which leads to very limited and repetitive gameplay between games.

If you agree with the idea of using the Dawn of Civilization RFC code base, this would require replacing all mod references (civil data, religions, chronology, victory conditions, arts, card values etc...). This would require some work, of course, but the cost would be much lower than continuing to improve what already exists.

EDIT: btw, the map you have designed @Nikas Kunitz seems very nice

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Hey, I haven't actually had time to be active on this project since last fall, as much as I'd like to. I spent over 300+ hours in 2023 and 2024 on this project and did most of the chore tasks I had planned but I knew the whole legacy would be very difficult for one person to tackle. And to be honest, the amount of work just to clean up the code base demotivated me...

It would be really cool to start another project for an RFC mod from Europe.

I think the best way to handle the code part of this project would be to start from a new Civ 4 RFC code base. Or, even better, to directly fork the Dawn of Civilization RFC codebase, which has a very active and clean codebase (Python and C++). I'm talking about the utils/helpers and so on that help define all the gameplay legacies (I'm talking about all the UI enhancements, speed optimizations, randomness, game events, etc...). The current problem with the RFCE/RFC3E code base is that a lot of data is hard-coded, which leads to very limited and repetitive gameplay between games.

If you agree with the idea of using the Dawn of Civilization RFC code base, this would require replacing all mod references (civil data, religions, chronology, victory conditions, arts, card values etc...). This would require some work, of course, but the cost would be much lower than continuing to improve what already exists.

EDIT: btw, the map you have designed @Nikas Kunitz seems very nice

So, it seems (well, it's obvious because of the RFCE enhanced edition you made) that you have quite deep understanding and knowledge of python and .dll side of the mod, including RFC mechanics? To say it directly, it could be great if we, likely including someone else, can cooperate to create this new RFC: Europa, or Old World, using newest coding base and optimisations. Though, as I stated in the opening post, I can't really help with proper coding. Main contributions that I can make are the map and map related files (like, I would be happy to fill city, settler, province and other maps if I am provided with empty map files), city and civ naming (including language system for cities, again I would need base files to fill), general historical knowledge and some help with xml files (I know how to add new things like units, buildings, resources etc. Hadn't experience with adding civs, though, but it seems similar, but as I noticed xml things require some double addition to python in RFC mods). So, if you are ready to create the backbones of the game, I'm ready to add meat, so to say (I understand that my potential contributions aren't as substantial as proper coding, but I can't help myself not to say that existing RFCE really has a lot of problems with things like the map or civs, not just code and optimisation). If so, we can start this summer.
P.S. what do you think about my "ultimate" civ list?

 

[voigt]

So, it seems (well, it's obvious because of the RFCE enhanced edition you made) that you have quite deep understanding and knowledge of python and .dll side of the mod, including RFC mechanics? To say it directly, it could be great if we, likely including someone else, can cooperate to create this new RFC: Europa, or Old World, using newest coding base and optimisations. Though, as I stated in the opening post, I can't really help with proper coding. Main contributions that I can make are the map and map related files (like, I would be happy to fill city, settler, province and other maps if I am provided with empty map files), city and civ naming (including language system for cities, again I would need base files to fill), general historical knowledge and some help with xml files (I know how to add new things like units, buildings, resources etc. Hadn't experience with adding civs, though, but it seems similar, but as I noticed xml things require some double addition to python in RFC mods). So, if you are ready to create the backbones of the game, I'm ready to add meat, so to say (I understand that my potential contributions aren't as substantial as proper coding, but I can't help myself not to say that existing RFCE really has a lot of problems with things like the map or civs, not just code and optimisation). If so, we can start this summer.
P.S. what do you think about my "ultimate" civ list?

Yes, I'd say a pretty deep understanding of how the code base works. Since I steel was inspired by the DoC codebase, I have a few clues about their differences. In the DoC codebase, settler and other maps are made with csv files, which makes them easier to manipulate.

I agree with some parts of your proposal like the 2 speed games (one with 1 turn = 1 year and the other 1 turn = 2 years) and the eras. But I'm agree with @manio curio on civs. Your civilizations proposal
has too many and they overlap too much and are perhaps too detailed for a map of this size (especially for Italy, Russia and Germany).

I don't want to make any false promises but I can start a draft from the DoC code base. For the name, I've thought of “Dawn of Europe” (to make the link with the original DoC mod). What do you think?

 

[manio curio]

Hey, I haven't actually had time to be active on this project since last fall, as much as I'd like to. I spent over 300+ hours in 2023 and 2024 on this project and did most of the chore tasks I had planned but I knew the whole legacy would be very difficult for one person to tackle. And to be honest, the amount of work just to clean up the code base demotivated me...

It would be really cool to start another project for an RFC mod from Europe.

I think the best way to handle the code part of this project would be to start from a new Civ 4 RFC code base. Or, even better, to directly fork the Dawn of Civilization RFC codebase, which has a very active and clean codebase (Python and C++). I'm talking about the utils/helpers and so on that help define all the gameplay legacies (I'm talking about all the UI enhancements, speed optimizations, randomness, game events, etc...). The current problem with the RFCE/RFC3E code base is that a lot of data is hard-coded, which leads to very limited and repetitive gameplay between games.

If you agree with the idea of using the Dawn of Civilization RFC code base, this would require replacing all mod references (civil data, religions, chronology, victory conditions, arts, card values etc...). This would require some work, of course, but the cost would be much lower than continuing to improve what already exists.

EDIT: btw, the map you have designed @Nikas Kunitz seems very nice

@voigt thanks for all those hours of work. I played your mod with Germany a few times and I enjoyed it.

 

[voigt]

@voigt thanks for all those hours of work. I played your mod with Germany a few times and I enjoyed it.

Thank you very much

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Yes, I'd say a pretty deep understanding of how the code base works. Since I steel was inspired by the DoC codebase, I have a few clues about their differences. In the DoC codebase, settler and other maps are made with csv files, which makes them easier to manipulate.

I agree with some parts of your proposal like the 2 speed games (one with 1 turn = 1 year and the other 1 turn = 2 years) and the eras. But I'm agree with @manio curio on civs. Your civilizations proposal
has too many and they overlap too much and are perhaps too detailed for a map of this size (especially for Italy, Russia and Germany).

I don't want to make any false promises but I can start a draft from the DoC code base. For the name, I've thought of “Dawn of Europe” (to make the link with the original DoC mod). What do you think?

Great! Sure, you can start with making the codebase for this new mod at time you see fit. As for me, I think I'll be ready to dive into making such a mod a bit later, maybe 2-3 weeks, when free summer will really start. I would say I'm ready to learn and contribute beyond what I stated above, if you will provide instructions and be operative guide to answer questions on the way.
As for the name. That's not something principal, of course, but I'm not really a fan of RFC Dawn of Europe name. As I understand Dawn of Civilization name originally was somewhat a pun (I mean no mocking) on the Rhye's and Fall name. Besides, timeline and eurocentricity of this mod really highlight that this is not "dawn", but wholesale rise to hegemony, so seems more like RFC:Rise of Europe. Personally, I would stick to names I suggested above: RFC:Europa or RFC:Old World (though "Old World" feels broader than just Europe and Mediterranean, atleast for me). In the end, the name is not so urgent at the moment and right now it feels like naming an unborn, or even unconceived, child.

I have more principal position, and more words, regarding my civ list. I hope what I mean would be understood correctly.
Of course, there are some "not-so-necessary" civs, and some/most of them are marked as optional or highly optional. However, there are also some potential civs that I did not include at all for the very reasons you stated, so this list is already kind of "minimum" to atleast generally realistically represent history of Europe. I will write some thoughts to underscore what I mean, particularly regarding regions you named.

tl;dr my civ list is created with both historicity and balance in mind (and current RFCE has problems with both), but also to give more dynamic and unique gameplay, avoiding this repetitiveness that you noted. Some civs don't really overlap either in timespan or space, but the ones that do pretty much should do so historically. Otherwise, the game will end up with pretty much the same large civs dominating in every game, unhistorically (or even if historically, still unrealistic), unbalanced and repetitive. In the mod that is centered on Europe, I think there should be more attention to, so to speak, regional power dynamics that led to emergence of globally important civs like France or Germany. Just having such globally important civs alone is not sufficient for such mod. Even if this will sound bold, I would ask you to trust my civ list, it will play well.

As I stated in the opening post, general ingame development should represent rise of big centralised states out of "medieval feudal chaos". To represent this chaos there should be several civs in each region, which should compete with one another until some gets upper hand and conquers others, like how it was in real history with several great centralised states rising by XVI century, while in the end game, XIX century, Europe should be divided by just several great powers. Territorial historical victory goals of some civs in my view are really about that. For example, I suppose territorial goal (atleast, the first one) of France should be "Restoration of the Royal Order: control territory of Kingdom of France in 1500 AD" that presupposes kicking out two other early civs, Burgundy and Aquitaine (while goal of controlling/vassalising Carolingian Empire is relegated to Lotharingia civ representing Austrasia).
More civs also intended to have vassalage mechanic play properly, to let more civs have or be vassals to make more dynamic gameplay instead of having few larger civs.

I also would say that this repetitiveness of gameplay that you rightfully noted in existing RFCE is not only because of its hardcoded mechanics, but also because of smaller number of civs with much clearer predetermination of "roles", so to say, with some having clear road to becoming great power already in Middle Ages.
Perhaps the most striking problem in that regard is Germany. There's this Germany civ starting in 856, that not only unrealistic because Germany was notably decentralised/divided during most/all of its history, but also badly balanced gameplay-wise. Even current RFCE has Burgundy and to some degree England to compete with France, while Germany civ pretty much has no competitors in Central Europe, leading it more often than not to easily become one of, if not the, leading civs and survive far past time of any more or less centralised power in Medieval Germany (UP and UHV goals also not helping with realism, as for some reason it was decided to give this Germany civ +25 military production bonus with gunpowder tech, while realistically this civ should collapse around mid XIII century). And then there's Austria civ starting in 1282, when Germany civ usually is pretty much dominating Central Europe, usually leading this newborn Austria being squashed by Germany civ. Realistically, if there's such unified Germany civ, there should be no separate Austria civ - Germany should just have its capital shifted to Vienna, or be reborn as Habsburg Austria leading main state of HRE. And that's not talking about Prussia civ, that is used in existing RFCE to start as and represent State of Teutonic Order, only to usually being quickly squashed by Poland, Lithuania, or even barbarians into nonexistence, until it respawns as Brandenburg-Prussia with capital in... whatever city in Eastern Germany, as Berlin is not usually founded. All in all, Germany is the best example of problems with civs current RFCE has.
In my opinion, there should be no unified Germany civ, but some regional ones to represent decetralised Germany: older four of Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia, and newer two of Austria and Prussia, that all should compete with each other. Prussia, that in my view starts in 1525/1618 in Berlin, will have its territorial historical goal of unification of Germany "With Iron and Blood: control or vassalise territory of German Empire" representing how it eventually ended up, while Austria should have more open territorial goal, allowing it to both become the "Danube empire" as it ended up historically, or to become center of unified Germany/HRE, as it really could had ended up.

In general, development across West-Central Europe would look like this: Neustria (France), Austrasia (Lotharingia), and Burgundy start in 500 in Paris, Metz and Lyon, to be soon joined by Aquitaine in 602/629 starting in Toulouse. They all will settle and compete over lands in modern day France, while Austrasia/Lotharingia will also expand across Rhine and Danube in Germany, until Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia start in 825, 844 and 915 and flip their portions of what Austrasia/Lotharingia civ settled, to start compete with each other (and also Bohemia) during Middle Ages, that these civs should not really pass through (only Bavaria did so in the "original statehood", while Swabia and Saxony collapsed. Later, Swabia should respawn to represent Swabian League, and later Duchy/Kingdom of Wurttemberg, while Saxony respawns in different core region, representing Electorate/Kingdom of Saxony with capital in Dresden). When Austria and Prussia start in 1282 and 1525/1618 they should meet with plenty of independent cities (with or without smaller 1-2-city core Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia) ready to be grabbed for unification of Germany.

Map itself should be balanced for these regional civs to be more or less sufficient to compete, so if one of them manages to unify the whole region (like entire France or Germany), it really should become major economic power.

I already wrote about North-Central Italian civs (Lombardy, Holy See, Venice, Tuscany, Genoa and Savoy) and how I don't see problems with their intended gameplay (they all should be city-states with really powerful capitals, and some other cities to expand, making them powerful as they spawn, but less powerful as the game progresses, while Savoy should start as "underdog" trying to expand and unify Italy as soon as possible, and as its territorial historical victory goal). I would only add that most leader AIs of Italian civs should have lowered aggressiveness dissuading them from starting wars, along with their core areas lacking iron (except Milan), so they could build only defensive units like crossbowmen, while relying on hiring mercenaries for melee and cavalry units (like condottieri and stradiots) that is both realistic and interesting (how much people use mercenaries otherwise?)

I won't go into too much detail about Eastern Europe/Rus. In existing RFCE Eastern Europe is really, really badly represented, in strokes so broad that it makes this picture abstract. However, even if current civs are fixed, mostly regarding their expansion, issues with balance come in. Particularly with Kievan Rus that, as I made it expand more historically and realistically in modmod years ago, becomes like Germany civ - too powerful and stable. As such, I think it is unavoidable to have more civs besides Kiev and Novgorod to represent the Rus. In my list I added the very major and longlasting principalities that gradually would spawn and flip parts of expanding Kiev civ, such as Polotsk, Chernigov, Volhynia, Smolensk and Suzdal. I think I need not tell you that Eastern Europe, even half of it that is present on the map, is huge, so these civs all would either be a notable regional powers with 4-5 cities, or even bigger with 8-10 cities, realistically competing with each other, instead of having just one super huge Kievan Rus and, also big, Novgorod. Again, this will add much more dynamic to gameplay, and make later gameplay of Lithuania, Muscovy and Poland grabbing these lands more interesting.

Below are screenshots of city placement sketch for 1000 AD scenario. It shows some of important cities (there can be alternative choices, I actually imagine two scenarios, one with some "historical" cities and another with "default" ones, like Arles vs Marseille or Santiago vs La Coruña), and how much space there is to fit in all the civs I described.
Italy is pretty much similar to 1500 scenario sketch I posted above, but independent cities of Turin and Verona potentially can be assigned to Lombardy civ alongside Milan, while Bologna and Ancona to Papal States.
In Germany you can see how all four early civs, stem Duchies of Lotharingia, Bavaria, Saxony and Swabia, fit in optimally in my opinion, with 4-5 cities each. Also, there's bunch of independent cities in the middle, ready to be divided, representing Duchy of Franconia, Thuringia and March of Meissen-Lusatia (alongside barbarian Polabian Slavic cities intended to be conquered soon by Saxony). Among the cities, Wilten should later become Innsbruck, Karnburg - Klagenfurt, Cannstatt - Stuttgart.
In France there's zenith of feudal decentralisation. France civ represents Capetian dynasty that just "respawned" in 987, controlling only Paris, Orléans and Rheims (as much as I understand cities and feodals in Champagne were more or less aligned with the king in Paris even before Philip II Augustus), surrounded by bunch of independent cities representing duchies and counties like Normandy, Brittany, Anjou and Toulouse (England on spawn in 1066 will flip Normandy, and will have clear way to capture independent cities to forge the Angevin empire), while in southwest and southeast there are powerful Poitevin Duchy of Aquitaine (that's the one later led by Eleonore) with capital in Poitiers, and Kingdom of Burgundy/Arelat with capital in Arles (that was formally outside France at this time and soon entered HRE). I think trying to reunify France by 1500 as France civ with such humble start will be really interesting gameplay.
Meanwhile in Spain Kingdom of Leon is alone with dozen of independent cities, some Christian (Pamplona, Barcelona), but mostly Muslim taifas of just desintegrated Caliphate of Cordoba...

 

[Gen1_]

Why do some tiles look nuked?

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Why do some tiles look nuked?

Because there was a nuclear war in 999 but historians are conspiring to hide the truth
I mark some key city tiles with fallout in development version of my map.

 

[gilgames]

In general I like the idea. I have thousands of hours in RFCE and it got played to the fullest. So new cvs and old pics with new challenges are definitely a welcomed change.
I can't help with coding, but can support the project with my experiences.
How I see, some suggested new civs could be as non playable ones. Visigoths seems the most obviously short term thing, but others seems redundant too. So we could have them in, but as civilization builders and not as playable ones.
Many of your suggestions will require lots of balancing, ie. making vassals more feasible, make it breakable, force the AI to make more fair trades. Ect.
Also many good ideas though!

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

In general I like the idea. I have thousands of hours in RFCE and it got played to the fullest. So new cvs and old pics with new challenges are definitely a welcomed change.
I can't help with coding, but can support the project with my experiences.
How I see, some suggested new civs could be as non playable ones. Visigoths seems the most obviously short term thing, but others seems redundant too. So we could have them in, but as civilization builders and not as playable ones.
Many of your suggestions will require lots of balancing, ie. making vassals more feasible, make it breakable, force the AI to make more fair trades. Ect.
Also many good ideas though!

Thank you, Gilgames, Priest-King of Budapest (I just like the combination of your nickname and info, feels like Civ7 if they will add both Gilgamesh and Hungary)! If this mod will be started, experienced RFCE fans like you would be more than welcome to try and test it out!
Concerning non-playable civs. I really intended all civs in my list to be playable, perhaps only very few of them can be added as unplayable initially. I think it can be noticed that RFC mods eventually avoid having unplayable civs. Original RFC had unplayable Byzantium only to be made proper playable civ in DoC as soon as possible. SoI has unplayable Buyids of Persia that were made playable in a mod, along with couple other civs. I remember people discussing how playing as the Pope would be cool in RFCE. I think it is better to add as much civs, particularly essential ones (and in my list there is 40+ of such), with as much of them being playable, as possible, so the map-filling expansion and balance can be controlled and fine-tuned from the start, instead of adding essential civs gradually and having some civs unplayable, both making balancing it all more complicated as the mod progresses.
What I think should be done at start of the mod development is adding, beside essential RFC mod base, most (40+) of the civs on the map to see how it will play out as is, even if some of them will be without UU, UB or UP initially, and from that start balancing them out and adding more advanced mechanics and details.

 

[gilgames]

Thank you, Gilgames, Priest-King of Budapest (I just like the combination of your nickname and info, feels like Civ7 if they will add both Gilgamesh and Hungary)! If this mod will be started, experienced RFCE fans like you would be more than welcome to try and test it out!
Concerning non-playable civs. I really intended all civs in my list to be playable, perhaps only very few of them can be added as unplayable initially. I think it can be noticed that RFC mods eventually avoid having unplayable civs. Original RFC had unplayable Byzantium only to be made proper playable civ in DoC as soon as possible. SoI has unplayable Buyids of Persia that were made playable in a mod, along with couple other civs. I remember people discussing how playing as the Pope would be cool in RFCE. I think it is better to add as much civs, particularly essential ones (and in my list there is 40+ of such), with as much of them being playable, as possible, so the map-filling expansion and balance can be controlled and fine-tuned from the start, instead of adding essential civs gradually and having some civs unplayable, both making balancing it all more complicated as the mod progresses.
What I think should be done at start of the mod development is adding, beside essential RFC mod base, most (40+) of the civs on the map to see how it will play out as is, even if some of them will be without UU, UB or UP initially, and from that start balancing them out and adding more advanced mechanics and details.

Its my pleasure.
I said the unplayables due to my experience with bohemia in frce+ it was awful tbh.
But if you guys can make it work sure. Im just concerned abit about the balance. I do remember it took Absinthe a lot of effort to balance things, specially with bigger civs. We talked a lot about Muscovy and Turkey, bc a small change trhow the whole thing. I also have a lot of ideas and things need tweaking, but those can wait until we have something. Mostly bc it seems to be a big radical overhaul, so ill just sit and wait what comes...