[Vanilla] What is best use of builders?

planetfall

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There are many options on using builders, and I still hate the lack of automation for using builders. Builders have a short life, so what's the best strategy for using builders before turn 150?

A- granary, builder for first two resources, other build options, add builders as city growth/production fails to improve,

or

B- builder(s) til city pop is above 4, then granary, then whatever

or

C- builder, granary, others items and hold off on more builders until new strat resources needs builder

or

D- granary, builder, something, builder if any worked tiles are not enhanced.


So four different approaches. Has anyone really examined to see which method yields the best production?

Thanks
 
Every game is different, of course. I play Immortal and Deity - I rarely build a Granary before a Monument, sometimes the Granary waits a loooong time... Culture seems way more important than Housing. I'm usually cranking out Settlers as soon as I get the Policy Card (having built one prior usually). So I don't have much trouble with Housing unless I start on a coast. Even then, you can usually get one Housing from 2 of the first 3 Improvements from the initial Builder. It often helps to get the boost for Irrigation from a Farm, so if you have Cows or Horses there is the second Improvement. Then the 3rd could be a lux Mine or a Quarry for more boosts. On a coast, you can usually get 2 Fish or something, another boost.

You will want culture to get you to Feudalism ASAP for the 5 build Builders. Using an early-ish Governor promo on Liang is helpful to get an extra build, especially if you have cash to buy a Builder now and then. Slotting the Builder card helps once you have 2-4 cities going for efficiency's sake.

You are better off having some sweet early tiles (3-4 food, 2+ production, and/or some Gold/Culture/Faith combos) than worrying about Builders super early. I often do Scout (1 or 2) opener on Pangea, start Builder, finish if no close Barbs or threats. Then go Settler unless threatened. You can block a lot of Barbs with one Warrior and two Scouts if need be. Run the Survey card before Agoge is available and you will get promos quickly. So no 2nd Builder for quite a while, it's often a cash buy after 2nd city is settled and I understand the map more.
 
In response to the OP by planetfall, I always play Gathering Storm rules, rather than Vanilla. Governors were introduced in Rise&Fall, so they are definitely a part of my game.

My early builds look a lot more like @Nigel_Tufnel2 - scouts to view the land, slingers to ward off barbarians, and settlers to grab the good spots for resources. Yes, I will include a builder in the mix when I have a key resource to improve and it's safe to do so.
My emphasis is grabbing more land, rather than improving one or two cities more thoroughly, in the first 100 turns.

I often choose Liang as one of my early governors, to get the extra charge for builders, whether they are built or bought.
As I'm still working on my skills to build up my economy in the mid-game, I'm not yet sure whether I prefer Reyna or Moksha, to buy districts with cash or faith (respectively).
 
My thoughts run very similar to both @Nigel_Tufnel2 and @vorlon_mi. Builders just aren't the highest priority up front. In deciding when/where to use builders I would instead say my priorities are:

1. Improve a horse or iron tile ASAP so as to start accumulating strategic resources ASAP.
2. Improve a resource tile so as to boost irrigation, wheel or masonry at the right time.
3. Improve three tiles when appropriate so as to boost Craftsmanship (I almost always complete Foreign Trade first, and frequently complete Early Empire before going to Craftsmanship, so usually no rush).

I don't usually build a granary until a city c fresh water reaches population of 4, although I will do it earlier on a coastal city.

My first builder is almost always bought with gold rather than being built.
 
Interesting. I was wondering if I was missing something, I just use builders to get resources or jumpstart a city pop for a key district. Other versions of civ, development of tiles was more important, so I was curious if someone tried pumping up a few cities with builders. Thanks
 
For fast win times folks tend to chop almost everything - so that requires a lot of Builders. I personally don't chop much, usually just to harvest before laying down a District or maybe chop the forest from a hill. And sometimes to gain a pop or two. Certainly using Builders to jump start a city as you mentioned is useful. I just wasn't real sure why a Granary figured in so many options. But, the great thing is we can play however we want!
 
For me, 4-yield tiles are a more than satisfactory use of population. I use this as a benchmark on when to start making workers. If I'm running out of 4-yield tiles to work, that's high time to get workers out.
Forests and especially jungle hills and natural resources like spices are more than enough for early game yields and if you can found a lot of cities with this in mind, go for lots of cities. This is also why I like large [GS] forest fires (and to an extent volcanos) – they can turn 2-3 new cities into quite a powerhouse with no workers needed.

I know it's obvious that a worked 2F 1P tile means 50% less production than a 2F 2P tile, but if you embrace and insist on sticking to the 4-yield rule... you'll get used to its power.

Some spawns are sadly not really conducive to this approach, as forests and jungles are the tiles that provide the "oomph". In case of a flatland start, sometimes you have no choice but to get out that worker first, even if it hurts your timeline for a bit. The sooner those mines get online, the better off you will be for the rest of the game. Or, simply move your settler to a location that is conductive to expansion to 4-yield tiles. In fact, that's what I usually do, if possible.

It's basically the same logic as the "plains hill settle", but with it's principle expanded to every citizen in your empire.

EDIT: You should really move beyond Vanilla. It makes the game oh so much better :)
 
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There are many options on using builders, and I still hate the lack of automation for using builders. Builders have a short life, so what's the best strategy for using builders before turn 150?

A- granary, builder for first two resources, other build options, add builders as city growth/production fails to improve,

or

B- builder(s) til city pop is above 4, then granary, then whatever

or

C- builder, granary, others items and hold off on more builders until new strat resources needs builder

or

D- granary, builder, something, builder if any worked tiles are not enhanced.


So four different approaches. Has anyone really examined to see which method yields the best production?

Thanks
I think that a good long term strategy is to build a large gold economy. This is even more important if you want to settle many cities. The reason why is because new cities always take a while to develop if they are dependent on local production. Their borders expand very slowly until you get the monument built or some other source of local culture. It is often advantageous to save enough money to immediately buy a monument when you settle a new city so that the city border will begin to expand immediately to the second ring. Knowing that the borders will expand quickly can influence which hex that you choose settle in.

Builders play an important role. You can get luxuries developed to trade and some improvements, like plantations, provide +2 gold. The +2 gold is helpful, but you really need trading partners to make the most money from luxuries. Strategic resources are also a great source of wealth. Consider the development of strategic resources as a race. The first to acquire a strategic resource has the potential for the greatest profit. Horses and iron are both available in the ancient era. If you are not going for an early war strategy, make friends with your neighbors and sell to them. Coal and niter are both very valuable soon after, but all strategic resources will lose value as more modern strategic resources become available. You can make a technological research strategy around or including the acquisition of strategic resources and usually have a healthy game and such strategy has value on any difficulty level.

Districts have to be built with local production unless you have Reyna or Moksha at level 4. In the later game, with Reyna at level 4 you can develop a city very quickly with gold by purchasing districts which are often built slowly in a new, lower population city. Gold is portable and can be used anywhere. If the goal is multiple districts, a new city would ideally be settled in growth friendly terrain and you could invest into creating a quick farm triangle, after having feudalism for the farm bonus, to grow the city to 4 or 7 even more quickly.

As for long term city development, ideally, you will improve each hex that is being worked, and those that will soon be worked, by the city population as soon as possible, unless there is a good reason not to, such as barbarian invasions or some other circumstance.

If for some reason you settle a city that has very low initial housing, for example if you settled on a strategic resource away from any source of water to gain immediate accumulation, but still wish the city to grow to accommodate the construction of districts, such as a city center, entertainment center, and theater square triangle which would require a size 7 city, and don't want to wait for many turns, you might consider purchasing or building the granary immediately, or placing improvements like farms or pastures which give .5 housing each, so that the growth of the city is not long slowed by overcrowding.

My tip to you and other players is to learn to develop your gold economy and to bear it in mind throughout the game. There are caveats to any strategy and more advanced players may be able to provide insight into when investing more heavily into the local production of each city is more helpful than building up your gold economy. I suppose if you plan to expand less and to grow taller, you might wish to prioritize improving worked tiles, or creating a large area of farmland, rather than expanding to new luxuries and strategic resources. Both Reyna and Pingala have level 3 abilities that take advantage of large populations. Each point of population naturally gives a small amount of both science and culture. With the appropriate promotions, Pingala provides 1 point more of each per population and Reyna provides gold for each population point.

In the end, a fully developed city is worth it's yields like gold, culture, science, and faith to the empire. After all the desired districts and buildings have been built, the production is usually worth the great people points and 15% of the local city production of whatever yield is produced by the city project you are running, if the city isn't used for creating units and has nothing to do but city business. Consider that city project to be the city's end game and each city has its own end game, but that end game may change throughout the game as the city grows and new districts are built making new city projects available.

High production cities can be very important. If you plan on building many units from a single city, perhaps with an encampment and military academy, or if you are producing many settlers from a city with the government plaza and ancestral hall, or producing many builders in a city with Liang with +1 builder charges, or you need high production for any other reason, then developing the city for high production is important. High production doesn't hurt any city, but particular cities might need it sooner. Also, when electrical power is available, some industrial buildings, like the coal power plant, extend a production bonus to other cities within range. It is important to consider how you will locate your industrial zones and power plants in later eras and having higher regional bonuses helps all cities within range.

Sorry if some of what I have written applies to later expansions rather than vanilla. I think the general principle of building a thriving gold economy is still a top goal and long term strategy in vanilla. Portable wealth will accelerate your new cities greatly. I still think local production is very important because it is hard to buy everything with gold. I am still honing my strategy, but I suspect that if I can never finish all the districts and buildings in time to take advantage of city projects, then my local production and gold output is either too low or I may be building unnecessary things or spreading my gold around too much. The city projects are important because they produce great people points. It is hard to get great people on high difficulty levels and it is still something I am trying to master.
 
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For me, 4-yield tiles are a more than satisfactory use of population. I use this as a benchmark on when to start making workers. If I'm running out of 4-yield tiles to work, that's high time to get workers out.
Forests and especially jungle hills and natural resources like spices are more than enough for early game yields and if you can found a lot of cities with this in mind, go for lots of cities. This is also why I like large [GS] forest fires (and to an extent volcanos) – they can turn 2-3 new cities into quite a powerhouse with no workers needed.

I know it's obvious that a worked 2F 1P tile means 50% less production than a 2F 2P tile, but if you embrace and insist on sticking to the 4-yield rule... you'll get used to its power.

Some spawns are sadly not really conducive to this approach, as forests and jungles are the tiles that provide the "oomph". In case of a flatland start, sometimes you have no choice but to get out that worker first, even if it hurts your timeline for a bit. The sooner those mines get online, the better off you will be for the rest of the game. Or, simply move your settler to a location that is conductive to expansion to 4-yield tiles. In fact, that's what I usually do, if possible.

It's basically the same logic as the "plains hill settle", but with it's principle expanded to every citizen in your empire.

EDIT: You should really move beyond Vanilla. It makes the game oh so much better :)

Hard, hard disagree on the last part. Each edition of the game added another layer of broken mechanics that the AI cannot handle.

To the OP’s question, minimaxing chops is an extremely powerful technique
 
Hard, hard disagree on the last part. Each edition of the game added another layer of broken mechanics that the AI cannot handle.

Most games' AI can't handle anything since 1991. Every PvE game is Sim City. Pretty much the main reason why PvP became a thing at all, considering how demanding it is regarding gameplay constraints.
 
Most games' AI can't handle anything since 1991. Every PvE game is Sim City. Pretty much the main reason why PvP became a thing at all, considering how demanding it is regarding gameplay constraints.
In all of the Civ games, human players can make better adaptation decisions and better military decisions. While I understand why some people want a better military challenge (PvP, a.k.a. multi-player Civ), that's not where I find the most fun.

In Civ1-Civ4, the AI was very capable of building a large military force and invading a single human player. Beating Civ4 at Deity level is a challenge, where lots of players have struggled and lots of forum posts have been written by the best players. I have not achieved it, but that's not my goal.

In my experience (Civ2 - Civ5, BERT, Civ6), the AI can build itself an empire, Sim City style, given a good/fertile location. The AI build it more slowly, measured in turns, but they do build it. Humans can interfere with that building process, especially with military attacks.
 
IMO granaries are generally a niche building for coastal cities and cities off fresh water where you are really struggling for housing. If I have to build one, I very rarely build it on a production per turn basis. I'll buy it and put my production into something that helps my civ a lot more than the granary.
 
IMO granaries are generally a niche building for coastal cities and cities off fresh water where you are really struggling for housing. If I have to build one, I very rarely build it on a production per turn basis. I'll buy it and put my production into something that helps my civ a lot more than the granary.
I build granaries all the time for growth. What else would you build instead?
 
Much time passed since original post. Now I rarely build granaries, only when I have cities capped at 3 housing, which I avoid except when need strat resource. When the time comes, I build neighborhoods instead as housing growth is clearer.
 
I build granaries all the time for growth. What else would you build instead?
early games, buy settlers, -1 pop will solve the housing issue.

capped housing only affects that single city.
The question should be what is this city's purpose to the empire?
To bring in science/culture/cash? To build in military?

weight the extra effort to make the city grow vs the benefit the city brings.

To answer the topic: What is best use of builders?
use them to chop resources
 
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To answer the topic: What is best use of builders?
use them to chop resources
I agree with your comments about "what does this city bring to my empire?" A key question, regardless of map type, desired victory condition, or choice of civ.

I usually *improve* strategic resources, rather than chop them, so that I have a continuous supply.
I usually *improve* luxury resources, for the amenities and so that I can sell my extras to the AI for cash.

What I'm learning is to *chop* the bonus resources, for the immediate benefits.
Do you recommend chopping strategic resources? Say, when horses or iron are no longer so important, and one is more worried about supplies of niter, coal, or oil?
 
Builder's abilities:
  • build improvements
  • harvest resources
  • bait military units out of city center
They are all important, but if I have to rank, harvest the the "best use".
Strategic and luxury resources cannot be harvest, early game improve these two resource type is preferred.
 
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