What Is Needed for Defense?

[docbud]

I am playing Babylon, Prince level.

Had an awesome start and hit a goodie hut for pottery right off the bat and went to education and am doing well science-wise.

I had a few bowmen and figured I was safe.

On turn 79 Russia comes after me:



I survived that onslaught after 20 turns and make peace.

A few turns later (turn 102) the Ottomans come after me:



I thought I had enough of a defense with my composite bowmen and spearman but got completely overrun.

I kept a composite bowman in my city, and my others behind the river. But the Ottoman spearmen and swordsmen simply crossed the rivers and wreaked havoc.

What do I need for defense?

According to the threads, all I need is an archer or two per city, but I had more than that.

 

[docbud]

Well--I stopped the attack, but the Ottomans want peace but want all my gold. They have twice the points as I do. I decline.

Then Russia attacks again (turn 150):



I only have two composite bowmen as everyone else got killed!

I've never been in wars like this. Is this just one of those cases of I had a bad roll of the dice or something?

And yeah--I should have stopped building the NC, but for a turn or two difference to get another bowmen, I said screw it.

I'd post a save, but I'm on a Mac and I'm not sure of the compatibility issues. And bedsides, it's a lost cause at this point. No way I can hold off Russia and the Ottomans.

And as you can see from the screenshot I am totally surrounded and can't even expand. I was doing great until the non-stop wars.

 

[Browd]

Looks like the seeds of your destruction were sown in the first 10 turns or so.

From the minimap it is clear that you haven't explored a bit. Looks like your initial warrior popped an upgrade ruin, but all you've done by turn 79 is pump out a couple of bowmen, research writing (an enemy unit is standing on your academy, which accounts for the low bpt), and gotten a religion (yay!). But I see NO improved tiles -- no farms, no mines, no plantations, no nothing -- it hasn't been pillaged -- it was never built. Did you never find time to build, buy or steal a worker?

By turn 102 you've upgraded to comp bows and built or bought a couple more, but still nothing on which to base a military or civilian economy. By turn 121 I see some improved luxuries, but no farms, so you've only grown 2 pop in 41 turns.

So, Job 1 is never let your city/economy get in this poor a shape. Population is key to science, science is key to development, and development is key to survival.

On the defense side of things, the guidance on defense is that a couple of archer units and a melee unit should suffice for the first part of the game. You need to keep pace with the AI, upgrading and building state of the art ranged and melee unit throughout the game. Bowmen are superior to archers and, when promoted, can go roughly toe to toe with comp bows (same combat strength and only slightly lower ranged strength). But, they can be outnumbered and swarmed by melee. They should suffice through about turn 60-70, but by turn 79 they are showing their age.

By turn 102, given your military situation, you should have beelined Machinery and gotten crossbows on line. Pikes and crossbows can serve you pretty well for 50-70+ turns, after which some gatling upgrades, a lancer or two and some early gunpowder units can see you through most of the rest of the game, if you are playing defensively.

Of course, even all of that can be an overstatement. The turn 121 screenshot shows Russia attacking with warriors, archers and a chariot archer. If you had 2-3 crossbows, the invaders would melt in the flames of your retaliation.

 

[Zutti]

Start was pretty bad for hammers.

By turn 79 you should have had a worker and some of those luxes improved, maybe another city or two already. When Russia attacked, you should have taken that as an opportunity to destroy Catherine's army at Babylon and pursued her into her territory to capture or raze some of her cities to make room for your own.

It also looked like you were focusing fortified melee units when they were attacking. Ideally you should allow the low power melee units to kill/slow themselves on your city(if nothing else they will fortify for a few turns to heal up). Focus on the siege units and archers if they are in range.

Really not much in the way of hammers, though.

 

[Maxym]

It looks like on t102 you are one CB short of a force able to clear your whole continent. 5 CB and a spear is all you need. You just got to keep them alive. Browd has given you a few pointers as to economy, let me add a few on tactics.

You CB are exposed, while a spear is hanging in the back. Keep it between the enemy and ur CB. Take out his cat first then either ranged or melee. If he has only ranged units left he can't take ur cap.

The academy will hook up strategic resources, you can use it to grab those horses early, and sell them to someone and buy a worker to get your luxes online for sale

 

[The Pilgrim]

Like I said many times before, GL should be banned for anyone who can't consistently beat emperor. With this start it took 37-47 turns.
I really really really wish GL would be changed in BNW. A man can dream...

 

[docbud]

Hey Gang--

Thanks for the pointers.

I didn’t have time to explore a lot because of several barbs that were harassing my city and my worker. Every time I tried to improve a tile, barbs came around and I had to put the worker back into my city again.

That really killed me because, like Browd said, my population sucks.

I had moved my spear back because he was getting slaughtered and I was trying to heal him. I did concentrate my firepower on the cats and the melee units, then turned my attention to the ranged. (I remember reading about that).

And I probably should quit rushing for the Great Library.

It looks like things got more difficult since the “fall” patch (which just came out for the Mac on the App Store last week).

And apparently I’ve picked up bad habits prior to that patch.

Thanks again. I’ll try another game tonight and see what happens.

 

[marekb]

If I go for OCC (I assume so since you have 1 city in t79), I usually build scout - monument - granary/library. Scouting (wit both warrior and scout) usually allows to find 200gold quite fast (meeting CS, selling embassies to AI). Then, if I cannot (or I don't want to) steal worker from CS, I try to trade 112gold for 5gpt and buy a worker. At this time my warrior returns near my city to defend worker (and allow him to work even with barbs coming). In your location Petra is much more desired wonder than GL. With Babylon I wouldn't try GL almost for sure. In any case, if the build time is not reasonable (= finish around t40-45 max - even on Prince it happens that AI builds GL around 40), I wouldn't pursue it.

Playing Babylon on this location I would research Pottery->Writing-> Archery->Calendar->Philosophy->... -> Currency to build NC as soon as possible (after planting GS from Writing it should be quite fast), building some bows in the meantime (and focusing growth when not building library/NC). Researching Engineering (and/or BW) here is lost of time. I would do that probably after Astronomy (with Oxford probably).

 

[joncnunn]

Researching Engineering (and/or BW) here is lost of time. I would do that probably after Astronomy (with Oxford probably).

I'd research Astronomy and use Oxford for Navigation.

 

[docbud]

I think my problem has been me rushing GL and then grabbing Philosophy to build the NC. Usually I don’t have a problem as I usually have pretty good production spots.

And in a lot of these threads folks are always saying "you need to have NC by turn 100."

In this game I was playing, I was playing sandstorm, and thus not great production.

I played a second game last night (Sandstorm), and was able to get the GL, NC, and built Petra while having four or five composite bowmen. I had some good production hills, had a river start, etc. And was doing pretty well. Then China swarmed me.

In most of my games, I try to have two to three good-sized cities. Any other cities are ones I would puppet.

In this game posted, Russia and the Ottomans were expanding very aggressively so I didn’t dare chance a second city; and my army was so weak, I wouldn’t have been able to defend two cities.

And I was researching engineering because I knew Russia would attack eventually and I was hoping it wouldn’t be until after turn 100 or so; and I was hoping to get the Great Wall to offer some defense.

I’ve never been attacked so quickly in my games. At least not before the “fall” patch.

 

[The Pilgrim]

And I was researching engineering because I knew Russia would attack eventually and I was hoping it wouldn’t be until after turn 100 or so; and I was hoping to get the Great Wall to offer some defense.

In other words: you were in a hole and kept digging. You can't solve problems caused by wasting too many resources on a wonder by wasting more resources on another wonder. GW won't help you if you have no units or techs.

This is very common. People really need to change their mindset and stop seeing wonders as tools for building a successful empire. They are prizes that you get for doing so. I would wholeheartedly recommend trying to play a few games without wonders at all. NC is the only wonder allowed. Tell us how it goes.

 

[Browd]

Playing without wonders is a great learning experience. It is amazing how your perspective on the game changes, and how much more effective your military becomes, when you focus on basic city infrastructure and tile improvements. And then you can go conquer the wonders that other civs built.

 

[Sequiture]

National college is ok, but what about Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Oxford? I don't build many wonders, but I go for those. Any other must haves? Some of the ones I mentioned I just like haha. I go for domination or conquest. What about the Oracle? I kind of ignore culture haha

 

[Browd]

Cold turkey!

Not for the rest of your life, of course, but to learn how to play without relying on wonders.

Actually, Oxford is OK (thematically consistent with NC-only). If you play culture, you can have Hermitage. But no World Wonders! That's the point. Foresake your favorite crutches for a few games to learn how to play better.

 

[docbud]

In my latest game, I've been at war with China since turn 90. It is now turn 247. China is first in literary and military, and I am second. China wants all my money, which I refuse to do.

And Maria is right on the other side of me.

I was not able to expand at all, as I ran into Chinese troops at turn 30 and I had no intention of exploring China's area.

But--my lone city is cranking out huge production and I'm almost maxed out at military units. Unfortunately, I have not been able to go on the offensive, until NOW

I've got artillery and it is payback.

I have a ton of wonders, and I didn't want to, as I understand the advice about playing without building wonders. But--there is nothing else to build or do. I only have three units left that I can build, and I've got all my defensive buildings (walls, castles, military academy, Kremlin, Brandenburg, etc.).

China's has kept me boxed in with dozens of cats/trebs.

A few turns to get riflemen and add another one or two artillery and I will wipe China out. I cannot believe I've been in this war so long.

And I was trying not to build wonders, but I have almost all of them.

It's China keeping me boxed in and attacking from three sides. I tried a few times to go on the offense, but my troops got destroyed by cats. I am serious--she had at least a half-dozen and just destroyed my units.

NOTE: In the first screenshot, I had lost 2 bowmen right off the bat.

NOTE NOTE: China's capital is south in the fogged area.

China rushed cities like crazy in this game.

And--is it possible I'm just a chicken and should have just gone crazy on her to begin with. I am more of a defensive player and try peaceful games.

But in this game, I am extremely ticked off at China!

 

[joncnunn]

National college is ok, but what about Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Oxford? I don't build many wonders, but I go for those. Any other must haves? Some of the ones I mentioned I just like haha. I go for domination or conquest. What about the Oracle? I kind of ignore culture haha

Oxford is an eventual must have for science victory and in fact the main reason when tall players stop building cities at 4 or 5, they don't build a new city even after happiness recovers. (They may conquer AIs cities, but they'll leave them as puppets rather than annexing unless the city has already built most of the buildings needed for national wonders)

Pyramids: Really bad wonder: Probably cheaper to build two workers.

Chechen Itza: Very Suitable for OCC cultural victory; otherwise decent for Persia on King and below due to synergy with their UA, not worth it otherwise.

Oracle: Must have for a cultural victory (failure to get this will result in science victory being faster). Otherwise decent at King and below; too high risk of being beat by AI to it at Emperor+ if you hand build any cities.

In fact going for conquest, you really shouldn't be building wonders, but instead should be conquering them.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I understand the advice about playing without building wonders. But--there is nothing else to build or do.

And that's one very accurate summary. People spam wonders when they don't know what to do. If you restrict yourself to not building any, you'll have no choice but figure out what the alternatives are. There are million things you could've done instead, but it's hard to impossible for you to see them, since you've never looked for them before.

You don't expand at all.
You don't explore at all.
You don't upgrade your units.
You don't spend your gold.
You don't spend your faith.
You don't use your great people.
You don't use your huge army, which can conquer the whole world, but are playing defensive worried about your 91 strength capital attacked by 12 strength trebuchets.

And the list is incomplete. Lots and lots of things to do.

 

[The Pilgrim]

National college is ok, but what about Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Oxford? I don't build many wonders, but I go for those. Any other must haves? Some of the ones I mentioned I just like haha. I go for domination or conquest. What about the Oracle? I kind of ignore culture haha

Nope. No Oxford, no Oracle, no nothing. Only NC. If you do well in two games, you can have a cookie and build an Oxford and Ironwork in your third. I'm not kidding. If you really want to improve, do yourself a favor and try that.

Actually, Oxford is OK (thematically consistent with NC-only). If you play culture, you can have Hermitage.

*sigh* Unfortunately, building universities and opera houses in size 2 cities is not very different from building wonders.

 

[docbud]

^^

* Normally I do expand. I was blocked in
* Normaly I do explore, but that area was full of AI scouts. I’ve read in threads that if you see a scout coming from an area then it means it’s been explored and you should explore other areas. Plus defending against barbs limited exploration.
* I do upgrade units
etc etc.

Anyway, The Pilgrim, great advice and I appreciate it.

I was able to take one city from China and I was still stymied. Here is what I faced 15 turns after that. I was able to repel the attack, but then, naturally, China wanted everything. And then attacked with triplanes. I said screw it and quit. How can two cities take on a dozen cities and dozens and dozens of troops?

And, this I don’t understand. Before I quit, I checked the stats, and I had gone ahead in technology/literacy and troops. But I was outnumbered ten to one?

I don’t know how you guys/gals do it. But then again I’m just a fifty-year-old guy just playing for fun.

I’ve never gotten my butt kicked this until after the “fall” patch.

Maybe I should just do a domination victory only and go on a rampage.

I was doing good at prince until lately

EDIT: The Pilgrim: I will try to build only NC and nothing else and see what happens. I normally go full tradition. Should I try Liberty instead so I can expand faster?

 

[joncnunn]

*sigh* Unfortunately, building universities and opera houses in size 2 cities is not very different from building wonders.

A city that can only grow to size 2 is a terrible city spot.
By the time Education is around, even the newest city should be size 7+. Oxford is in fact worth while (assuming NOT an OCC) to delay for quite some time so I'd expect that newest city to be size 9+ before it got around to starting to build the University. (In addition if one of your cities is really cash poor; can be bought with cash there)