What is your Utopia?

[generalwar]

Well.. living in real communism would be nice. At least better than this society imho.

Communism was a good idea, but, it was preformed wrong. Everybody know that.
And first christians lived in comunas. You know, they would sold everything and gave money for community. That's communism. It's ironic how Church is vs communism. Yes, but against such a communism as it was preformed, not against this first kind of communism :.

 

[redmosquito]

Utopias are for people who don't realize that utopias are the last thing we need.
If everything was perfect and fair and efficient and good and what not, everything would be predictable and boring, we would have nothing to complain about, losing about 3/4 of our conversational topics and comedy would be irreparably damaged (at least good comedy). I can possibly imagine more consequenses, but... nah.

The perfect world is an imperfect world.

everything is relatively predictable and boring compared to the early 1900s world. yet we are far from perfect and fair and efficient. (they are probably contradicting goals by the way)

 

[Lord Arska]

Communism was a good idea, but, it was preformed wrong. Everybody know that.
And first christians lived in comunas. You know, they would sold everything and gave money for community. That's communism. It's ironic how Church is vs communism. Yes, but against such a communism as it was preformed, not against this first kind of communism :.

That's the real communism of which I was talking about.

Unfortunately it's called utopia for a reason. It is really hard if not impossible to achieve. Like every other utopia mentioned in this thread.

 

[cr0ws]

I don't really believe a state of social Utopia can ever be achieved in this dimension. It is nice to daydream about it , like so many other things in life, and this world may appear to show signs of utopia possibility hence man's persistence and hopes of achieving such a state since civilization's first came to be but it's currently too corrupt to ever be achieved.

Unfortunately all I can predict and see for humanity is nothing but wars, power struggles, power abuses, discrimination, oppression, treachery, murder and lust in any civilization mankind creates. It is in our caste and humanity will perish this way, unfortunately.

 

[SalmonSoil]

everything is relatively predictable and boring compared to the early 1900s world. yet we are far from perfect and fair and efficient. (they are probably contradicting goals by the way)

I think you should try being lower class in the early 1900s before you say it's less borign than nowadays. (And nowadays we have civ!)

 

[Disgustipated]

Utopias are for people who don't realize that utopias are the last thing we need.
If everything was perfect and fair and efficient and good and what not, everything would be predictable and boring, we would have nothing to complain about, losing about 3/4 of our conversational topics and comedy would be irreparably damaged (at least good comedy). I can possibly imagine more consequenses, but... nah.

The perfect world is an imperfect world.

The suicide rate would skyrocket. Good point.

 

[Giant Dwarf]

Major props to Arioch for the Conan reference. Just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGOQ7SsJrw

 

[Disgustipated]

I think you should try being lower class in the early 1900s before you say it's less borign than nowadays. (And nowadays we have civ!)

I think he's saying the opposite. That now days is boring compared to early 1900's. Back then we had major world wars, massive disease epidemics, racism, large groups of people who couldn't vote, imperialism... the list goes on.

Now days is kinda boring. You can spend days at a time inside your house on the computer and never see the outside world. I know, I had done it . The risk of death in the western world is the lowest it's ever been. If you never drive in a car, it's even lower.

 

[cr0ws]

I think he's saying the opposite. That now days is boring compared to early 1900's. Back then we had major world wars, massive disease epidemics, racism, large groups of people who couldn't vote, imperialism... the list goes on.

Now days is kinda boring. You can spend days at a time inside your house on the computer and never see the outside world. I know, I had done it . The risk of death in the western world is the lowest it's ever been. If you never drive in a car, it's even lower.

Yes and WTC is the most exciting thing that's happened in the west in the longest!

 

[Le Sage]

Does this discussion actually concern Civilization 5?

 

[Lord Tirian]

Saving that, I'd be content with a benevolent A.I. overlord managing everything. You don't need to watch the watchmen if they're selfless and incorruptible.

You mean The Culture? Yeah, pretty much yes! (of course, it was written as utopia, so...)

Cheers, LT.

 

[Horserush]

There is no "real communism" or "real socialism". Anything that considers materialism as the basis of human nature is an abomination in my book. And most of Eastern Europe can very much give testimony for that. We experienced the faces of communism, each nation a different one.. Not even one of us liked it.

Marxist communism was hijacked by Stalin at like .. stage 2 or something. The plan was to do away with the central command after it had set up the initial communist system, but he took that power and held on to it. Human nature basically gets in the way of any communist system because power corrupts, and the means to the end according to Marx was through centralizing power and THEN relinquishing it.

Or something like that =D

 

[Disgustipated]

Marxist communism was hijacked by Stalin at like .. stage 2 or something. The plan was to do away with the central command after it had set up the initial communist system, but he took that power and held on to it. Human nature basically gets in the way of any communist system because power corrupts, and the means to the end according to Marx was through centralizing power and THEN relinquishing it.

Or something like that =D

I get this same line from commies all the time. For the sake of argument, what do you think would have happened if they had relinquished control?

Human nature would have taken over. Organized crime would have taken over. Worst case scenario is total anarchy.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Human nature would have taken over.

True. Of course, the answer to that is (and probably not possible given the past circumstances):

Change human nature. Failing that, install omnibenevolent AI overlords.

Of course, neither of these two options are available right now. But that's why we keep toiling along. In the hope of a better future.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Horserush]

What makes you think I'm a commie? I read Marx in school and that is what I remember from his plan. There were a LOT of people that wanted this system back then, but since the cold war the propoganda against communist systems has been over the top so really all you're going to hear when you even whisper communist are talking points fed to you by a paranoid government (with good reason considering the weapons developed after Russia tried to go with a communist system by both sides).

I'm not a communist, but that doesn't stop me from talking about it from a rational perspective. I mean why not? It's not like the current gov is perfect and works for the people's best interests all the time.

Human nature would have taken over. Organized crime would have taken over. Worst case scenario is total anarchy.

Organized crime really took off in Russia after the wall fell. Think about that for a second

 

[Disgustipated]

okay, I don't mean that in a bad way. A perfect communist society would be good if it could exist.

Someone mentioned Star Trek earlier. TNG (the next generation) seems to be the closest you could find to perfect communism. But as mentioned earlier, little details are spelled out in the series. They say they have no money, and people work to better themselves. I wonder if this is true in the civilian population as well. Where are the dirtbags who just want to sit home and watch Oprah/Jerry Springer all day?

It's hard to imagine Captain Picard accepting such a position with high responsibility and stress for no pay. He does it only for the betterment of society (and himself). Or fame, but I'm sure that's frowned upon in ST:TNG society as well. What would the Lindsay Lohans of the future do?

 

[Lord Tirian]

Or fame, but I'm sure that's frowned upon in ST:TNG society as well. What would the Lindsay Lohans of the future do?

It probably depends on the type of fame. In such a post-scarcity world, ideas, creativity and reputuation might become the currency - a bit like academics and artists nowadays.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Horserush]

The star trek utopia sounds a lot like the Zeitgeist movement. If you're interested you should at least read their mission statement (scroll down a bit and you'll find it)

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?Itemid=50

Personally, I'm not convinced that these ideas can ever come to fruition, but it sure sounds nice

 

[Emperor_Jackal]

My Utopia:

A world where people are rewarded in a directly proportionate ratio to the value of their work as adjusted by relative availability of other people willing to do the same work and the interest of a consumer/entity to have this work performed and the merits of the quality of the work. And each person shall be satisfied with their own reward and understand why it is what it is and why another person's reward may be greater or less based on the same standards.

Also, cultural and religious pluralism.

Where do disabled people fit into your plan?

 

[cr0ws]

I get this same line from commies all the time. For the sake of argument, what do you think would have happened if they had relinquished control?

Human nature would have taken over. Organized crime would have taken over. Worst case scenario is total anarchy.

Yeah but USSR was a swine eat swine of totalitarian nightmare. Till the majorities got tired of all the corruption and living in constant terror and discrimination for some "union's commonwealth".

It's not really different than the american "union" xept a little less totalitarian (but that'll change soon, we see it happening right before our eyes). The state has a bigger monopoly over the media than in USSR's case so there isn't that much of a need to send anyone to the gulag camps for speaking out the truth even though occasionally it happens, brave reporters speak out that is. The bankers and money masters pretty much run government of US and it's fundamental institutions. The puppet masters utilizing their hold on media give the masses a "two-party (but in reality it's only one)" system where they think they choose one out of the two puppets presented to them (who both work for the bankers) and put on a great shoah for the masses so it doesn't really matter who is president of USA because the power is in reality retained by the plutocracy. And they keep telling and brainwashing the masses over and over again that "your vote counts" and "you are free" while convincing them that that is democracy when in reality it's psychological mind control.US government employs some of the most gifted psychologists in the world to devise their political strategies. Those who run USA just take on a slightly less extremist strategy to hold onto power than the political strategy soviets used.

My aunt always told me..."USA's foundation starts on the US penny and ends on the US dollar." when this fiat currency utterly collapses from all the corruption this empire will breathe it's last. And the same thing goes for the European "Union" imo.