What kind of rule modifications would you recommend?

[Cuivienen]

BIG illogical decision to give FREE MARKET the -5 POLICE! Sheesh. No one
would want to take that Social Plan, unless also taking POLICE STATE. So it
would be a society with a "Police State Free Market"... and that just doesn't
make sense to me.
I've tweaked the ALPHA.txt file to make sure the Morganites have the chance
at least to get rich and decadent enough to ACTUALLY corner the energy
market--without also having to conquer several factions and reduce the rest
to pitiful slaves...

The original alpha.txt file has
Free Market, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ---PLANET, -----POLICE

I've changed that to
Free Market, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --PLANET, +INDUSTRY

Why should Free Market give you a +2, -3 and -5 for a total of -6 while the
other Societies have +3, -2 and +4, -2? I actually think Sir Sid designed the
social scale so bad to make it obvious that we should tweak it. My reasons
for the change are simple: no POLICE negative because the people WANT
a Free Market. A plus INDUSTRY because it stimulates business...

Ridiculously overpowered. The +2 Economy for Free Market already makes it a much better social choice than Planned or Green in the early game for most factions, even with -5 Police. It may look bad on the screen, but try it. It kicks bodyparts.

I've also tweaked the MORGAN faction file to give:

Morgan Industries, The Mogul, Morganites, M, 2, Morgan, M, -1, 0, 0, 1, 1,
TECH, Indust, ENERGY, 100, SOCIAL, ++ECONOMY, POPULATION, 3,
COMMERCE, 1, SOCIAL, -SUPPORT

A +2 ECONOMY will give him lots of energy credits to instantly launch an
attack by buying high-tech gadgets if necessary, but the "-1,0,0,1,1" means
"ai-fight, ai-power, ai-tech, ai-wealth, ai-growth" which should make the ai
want to seek wealth and growth but not combat and Council influence. This
seems a safe balance.

Again, ridiculously overpowered. Morgan is already arguably the best faction in human hands (even if the AI Morgan is by far the worst), giving him another +1 Economy is ludicrous. It makes levels harder than Transcend a walk in the park.

Economic Victory is still very possible without these tweaks, and this makes it absolutely impossible to lose as Morgan. Not the idea at all. Winning should be a challenge.

I've also tweaked the other Society numbers:
Original SE:
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC

I've changed it to:
Police State, DocLoy, +EFFIC, +SUPPORT, ++POLICE, ---GROWTH

This makes more sense. Fascist governments are always more efficient at
distributing wealth, and the GROWTH -3 because people are less inclined to
breed under tyranny...

I don't get why you think that

A) Police State = Fascist. It doesn't. It means a nation that is "unfree." That includes nations like China and North Korea, nations like Iran and Syria, nations like the DRC and Cote d'Ivoire as well as numerous other nations in the world. Nazi Germany, Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy are just three examples of one type of Police State.

B) A Police State government discourages people from breeding. It's not as if the people are so distressed that they spend all of their time shaking their heads in worry. Life goes, and, unlike moderately celibate Fundamentalisms or enlightened Democracies, people in a Police State have little knowledge or access to contraception.

The original SE WEALTH:
Wealth, IndAuto, +INDUSTRY, +ECONOMY, --MORALE

Making all Morganite combat units very weak. A sitting duck. I've tweaked to
Wealth, IndAuto, +INDUSTRY, +ECONOMY, -MORALE

Not quite as crazy as your other changes, but it does further overpower the Morganites.

Also
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE, ++MORALE, ++PROBE, -SUPPORT

Off-hand, I don't recall any Special Project that reduces the negative effect of
Thought Control, only Cybernetic.

There is. The Cloning Vats. (And the -3 Support is necessary to prevent this government from resulting in a faction simply overwhelming its neighbors by sheer numbers and high morales.)

 

[Sargon of Agade]

Cataphract, my comments were directed to Flinn, not you, I apologize for any mis understandings... most fascist countries are police states, not all police states are fascist... So yes Fascism has its police state portions, but to change Police State to more reflect only fascism and not the diverse political bodies that are considering Police States doesn't seem to make any sense; Cuivienen said it better then I could so read the post above this one. I am sorry, but Flinn, I couldn't tell any player that wants to consider changing the Alpha text to follow any of the changes you propose... The SE stats as they stand do not need any changing unless your going to be really nit-picky or want to completly unbalance the game in favor of your own personal favorite faction and playing style... Could changes be made, yes, are they essential or neccassary, no, would some be nice, ofcourse, but again, I have to say that the changes proposed by Flinn seem way to drastic and will mess with the balance in the game...

 

[FinnMcCool]

**SMACK!!** (I reel back from the blow and reply...) "THAT'S THE SPIRIT!!"

Cuivienen has certainly nailed me. Not put me down though. Sargas too. This thread has finally gotten serious enough that I have to admit I respect your points totally. You could say I agree, but it's still not good enough.

Cuivienen says "it may look bad on the screen, but try it, it kicks bodyparts..." and that's the point. Er... the kicking bodyparts part... I've won as Morgan, and I agree, it might be the most powerful faction (Peacekeepers probably; Golden Ages everywhere... and votes...) but it's only easy to win as Morgan by conquering your enemies and then buying out the refuse left behind. I don't call that an "Economic Victory". That's more akin to, say, the economics of rebuilding Japan in a Democratic mold after WWII. What I'm looking for is to create the faction so Economic Victory can be achieved without attacking a single player. Something more like what we see in Medieval Venice. Conquering Europe and having a paltry military.

I take your points, Cuivienen and Sargas, they're all true, but can you see what I'm getting at? Create an AI that despises combat, and play so as a human. Sure, with huge Economy any human can walk over the AI, but that isn't an Economic win.

BTW, I used the word "Fascist" for convenience. I agree, it isn't the only Police State, but you have to admit, they share so much in common that the boundary between them gets blurred...

an afterthought:
"A Police State government discourages people from breeding. It's not as if the people are so distressed that they spend all of their time shaking their heads in worry..." Cuivienen, that I have to disagree with. They DO sit around wringing their hands with worry... Growth rates in Europe declined after the Iron Curtain fell, and if you speak to people who lived there, they just weren't willing to bring children into the world so much. I stick with the ---GROWTH. But I'm testing out the +2 ECON for Morgan as AI (I'm Spartan, laugh) and all it takes is extra Probe Teams... So far... But I'm open to tweaking it again. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Sargon of Agade]

I am glad you view this a constructive critisism not as a personal attack. I am not sure the Morgans can be tweaked to create a Faction that you describe... I created my peaceful faction(+1 Economy, +1 to 2 industry, -1 effeciency and -1 growth) and I have only won with Tran and Economic victory(I disable diplo because I can do it too easily.) I don't what to do with the morgans, the AI seems to only fight defensive wars, the -1 support hurts its war waging capablity, and if you go wealth with them you have +2 econ, +1 industry -1 support and -2 morale, that would be hard to wage war with, even more with dem and freemarket (+4 economy, -3 support, +2 growth, +2 eff, +1 industry, -5 police, -3 planet,) That combo seems to me easy to get an Economic victory and hard to wage war... I don't know what else to say, I still don't think that Police state needs to be changed, I think that FM and Wealth could be made more appealing, but it isn't crucial...

 

[FinnMcCool]

I got another idea on the Morgans, to give them huge economy and keep them from being warmongers. HURRY at 200%. I'm testing it now, as the Spartans, but I'm no speed-SMAC player. I'm only up to Chaos Gun by now. So far all the faction dominance scales are nearly even. So far the Morganites have been sitting tight, counting their money. Oddly, it's the Peacekeepers working on the Merchant Exchange, which makes me wonder if the alpha.txt file and MORGAN.txt file tweaking has caused some glitch in the AI's planning schedule...

Frinstunce. I tried using "PENALTY WEALTH" but it doesn't apply in the game. Any you know why that might be? Adding params to the faction file has to be exactly typed, I assume. I thought it might be useful to give Free Market -1 Planet and -2 Police with the Morgans at "PENALTY Free Market" but I don't know how the prog reads "Free Market" in this param...

 

[Cuivienen]

an afterthought:
"A Police State government discourages people from breeding. It's not as if the people are so distressed that they spend all of their time shaking their heads in worry..." Cuivienen, that I have to disagree with. They DO sit around wringing their hands with worry... Growth rates in Europe declined after the Iron Curtain fell, and if you speak to people who lived there, they just weren't willing to bring children into the world so much. I stick with the ---GROWTH. But I'm testing out the +2 ECON for Morgan as AI (I'm Spartan, laugh) and all it takes is extra Probe Teams... So far... But I'm open to tweaking it again. Thanks for the feedback.

Europe's population growth may have dropped, but this wasn't the result of the Iron Curtain. It was the result of the modernization of western Europe. Large parts of Europe today are actually losing population. However, with the exception of Belarus and microstates like Monaco, all European countries are at least somewhat Democratic. Europe's growth has slowed, but not because of Police State governments, but because modern families just don't have five and six children. It isn't necessary in a part of the world where the infant mortality rate is the lowest in history and contraception is readily available.


Oh, and all of the factions will try for all of the Secret Projects. The Peacekeepers, if they acquire Industrail Base early on, will build the Merchant Exchange plenty fast. It just usually takes them a while to acquire the technology because they focus on EXPLORE and DISCOVER technologies (while Ind Base is 4 BUILD, 3 CONQUER, 1 DISCOVER in the random tech setting).

 

[FinnMcCool]

I just eliminated the Morganite Gargantuine Economy. Honestly, I can't
agree with all the howls of fear that with +2 Econ the Morganites becomes
too powerful. It only makes his ECONOMY powerful. Tweak the alpha.txt
file and you can sidestep the AI walking over you. If you want to play the
Morgainites, be sure to have the integrity NOT TO GO TO WAR.

MORGAN:
Morgan Industries, The Mogul, Morganites, M, 2, Morgan, M, -1, 0, 0, 1, 0,
TECH, Indust, ENERGY, 100, SOCIAL, ++ECONOMY, POPULATION, 3, COMMERCE, 1, SOCIAL, -SUPPORT,HURRY,200
Economics, Free Market, ECONOMY
Economics, Planned, nil

As you can see, the changes are in the AI planning and ECON only.

I was playing under this SE formula:
Frontier, None,
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, ---GROWTH
Democratic, EthCalc, +MORALE, ++GROWTH, -SUPPORT
Fundamentalist, Brain, ++MORALE, +PROBE, -RESEARCH
Simple, None,
Free Market, IndEcon, +ECONOMY, -PLANET, --POLICE
Planned, PlaNets, +GROWTH, +INDUSTRY, -EFFIC
Green, CentEmp, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, --GROWTH
Survival, None,
Power, MilAlg, ++MORALE, ++SUPPORT, --INDUSTRY
Knowledge, Cyber, ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, --PROBE
Wealth, IndAuto, +INDUSTRY, +ECONOMY, --MORALE
None, None,
Cybernetic, DigSent, ++EFFIC, ++PLANET, ++RESEARCH, ---POLICE
Eudaimonic, Eudaim, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, ++INDUSTRY, --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE, ++MORALE, ++PROBE, ---SUPPORT

I eliminated Morgan in 2204, so not much play was done experimenting
with these SE settings. But My personal opinion is that they work...

Ultimately, if Morgan were to survive, he could achieve FUND-FM-WEA-EUD
which would give him an ultimate +5 ECON, +2 GROWTH, +3 IND, +1 PROBE
but a -2 MORALE, -2 POLICE, -1 PLANET and -1 RESEARCH which I think
is more than balanced.

 

[Cataphract887]

but the AI just plain sucks.it losing right away to you wasnt an indication that morgan is balanced.

 

[Cataphract887]

I am glad you view this a constructive critisism not as a personal attack. I am not sure the Morgans can be tweaked to create a Faction that you describe... I created my peaceful faction(+1 Economy, +1 to 2 industry, -1 effeciency and -1 growth) and I have only won with Tran and Economic victory(I disable diplo because I can do it too easily.) I don't what to do with the morgans, the AI seems to only fight defensive wars, the -1 support hurts its war waging capablity, and if you go wealth with them you have +2 econ, +1 industry -1 support and -2 morale, that would be hard to wage war with, even more with dem and freemarket (+4 economy, -3 support, +2 growth, +2 eff, +1 industry, -5 police, -3 planet,) That combo seems to me easy to get an Economic victory and hard to wage war... I don't know what else to say, I still don't think that Police state needs to be changed, I think that FM and Wealth could be made more appealing, but it isn't crucial...

you know,factions can be given modified combat abilites IIRC.you could make it so they only attack at 90% or 80% of normal ability.morale does not need to be dropped to make wars hard.you can look at faction.txt or alphax.txt and they discuss the options available.

I just eliminated the Morganite Gargantuine Economy. Honestly, I can't
agree with all the howls of fear that with +2 Econ the Morganites becomes
too powerful. It only makes his ECONOMY powerful. Tweak the alpha.txt
file and you can sidestep the AI walking over you. If you want to play the
Morgainites, be sure to have the integrity NOT TO GO TO WAR.

but democracy\green\knowledge lets you win easy with +2 econ.keep cranking mind worms and attacking anybody else using freemarket so that noone but you gets it,and you will be way ahead in research.

Cataphract, my comments were directed to Flinn, not you, I apologize for any mis understandings... most fascist countries are police states, not all police states are fascist...

correction accepted i had not given this adequate thought time.

 

[FinnMcCool]

Cataphract, you're being stubborn. I mentioned several posts before, that OF COURSE you can walk over the AI with Morgan at +2 ECON. That is a given fact. You can walk over the AI with Morgan at +1 ECON. In fact, it's my serious opinion that tweaking the combat odds (like +10% attacking from higher elevation, etc) makes it even easier for a human to beat the AI, I assume that tactics like that aren't built into the program's strategy. It only adds to the advantage humans have to strategize, but it's fun, so I include it...

I also said before, have the integrity NOT TO GO TO WAR as Morgan. If you want to play a game shooting for a real, serious Economic Win, you have to have one faction that can conceivably have such a gigantic economy that he can "Corner the Market" which isn't the same as destroying your enemies and buying out the smoldering rubble. I'd like to create a Morgan that can buy out a strong, viable enemy.

P.S. By the way, it's FINN, F-I-N-N, not Flinn. It's Irish, short for "Fionn" which means white (like the hair)...

 

[Cataphract887]

sorry i had not fully read the thread before replying and did not edit that out

 

[FinnMcCool]

I was going great guns as Morgan, in a small world I got about 7000 credits by turn 2250, Hunter-Seeker is mine, but my net income was only 185 cr/turn. Soon the factions started declaring Vendetta because of my "persuit of wealth" so I started the Probe Team thought-control takeovers. It was a bloodless coup, untill my first combat victory in 2251 (merely to eliminate a Santiago assault group, not a conquest...)

I was trying to see if Morgan could achieve economic victory without going on an offensive war, and I came to a Believer city with 11 pop. It needed TWELVE THOUSAND credits to subvert... So, I guess it can't be done! I give up. You can't win this game as a pacifist.

If only there were a file you could tweak that changed some of the formulas. I've always thought they were a little bug-ish... Any of you fanatics out there know if it's possible to change the basic formulas? Like efficiency, subversion cost, things like that?

 

[Sargon of Agade]

The cost is so high because she already starts with +1 probe, which makes it more expensive...

 

[Cuivienen]

Actually, it should be impossible to subvert Miriam's cities if she's Fundamentalist (and I've never seen her not be).

 

[Cataphract887]

the nethack-terminus makes probe actions -25%.would that make an econ victory cheaper?

I was going great guns as Morgan, in a small world I got about 7000 credits by turn 2250, Hunter-Seeker is mine, but my net income was only 185 cr/turn. Soon the factions started declaring Vendetta because of my "persuit of wealth" so I started the Probe Team thought-control takeovers. It was a bloodless coup, untill my first combat victory in 2251 (merely to eliminate a Santiago assault group, not a conquest...)

I was trying to see if Morgan could achieve economic victory without going on an offensive war, and I came to a Believer city with 11 pop. It needed TWELVE THOUSAND credits to subvert... So, I guess it can't be done! I give up. You can't win this game as a pacifist.

If only there were a file you could tweak that changed some of the formulas. I've always thought they were a little bug-ish... Any of you fanatics out there know if it's possible to change the basic formulas? Like efficiency, subversion cost, things like that?

i thought i said this already,but you can look at the alphax.txt or the datatech file to see how to do this.just add a line to every faction, ''PROBECOST, 75'' i think....

 

[Cataphract887]

BTW ive seen free drone cities that need 79,000 energy to subvert but that was late in the game

 

[AncientPlayer]

I've tried many, many tweaks and most have been interesting but my "standard" set of them includes:

-- make retool strictness 1 free in category
-- Number of subspace generators needed = 9 (too easy with 6)
-- a bunch of minor tweaks in world builder to make the random maps more to my liking including a slowing of the global warming
-- added a world size menu item of 80x160
-- shorten the range on all aircraft slightly, halved it for choppers
-- large increase in the cost of colony pods to slow the game down a little (see note)

In the faction files my standard set has a tweaked Morgan to increase his chance of survival by an AI.

To slow the rate of growth I've played with colony pods costing various amounts up to 3X normal but its even more effective if you increase the value for: Nutrient cost multiplier, #nuts @ row of growth box

In any case, to compensate a little for the expensive colony pods I gave everyone an extra one to start with.