What would you simplify about Civ 3?

dh_epic

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It's a question I've been asking myself, and I think it's often overlooked. Civ 3 is a game that takes a long time to play, and while we may love it, there's a mainstream audience that can't / won't devote 18 hours to games. (It's the same problem that plagues many MMOG's and leads to casual gamers having less fun than the hardcore gamers.)

I don't think people will agree that the game needs to be playable in a few hours ... but I think we recognize that if we want even one of our crazy ideas in the game, then it will make the game take much longer. To compensate, something else in the game needs to happen much faster and thus be much simpler.

So, without further ado, what would you simplify about Civ 3, to make room for concepts in Civ 4?
 
Pollution: Not eliminate it but make it somehow have a collective detrimental effect. Abstract it maybe, tie it to the city's population or SOMETHING different from the way it is now. I would even argue that it probably needs to have a stronger impact than it currently does -- right now building factories is a complete no-brainer to do in every non-totally-corrupt city. Make it an issue -- something like each pollution face has a chance of killing a pop member or something but more insidious and less obviously random.

Diplomacy: Not the options available, which should possibly be increased some, but the interface. No more clicking through every gold possibility to get the maximum possible. No more checking every leader every turn to see what techs may or may not be available and when I can twofer/threefer. Remove silly things like every-turn map selling when there's little to no new information but which help the player against the AI.

Gimpy UI elements: Things like airlifting are way more tedious and complicated than they should be -- it should be universalized, much like unit support was. Loading and unloading units on ships is a UI disaster -- a better method should ideally be found. No stack bombard option, which would save a TON of time.

Arathorn
 
I'll start... I've hinted at these in other posts, but mostly as an afterthought, and after agreeing on things with a lot of other brilliant people.

1: DIVIDE EMPIRES INTO PROVINCES

Most nations (even the United States, for simulation purposes) would have only a few provinces. California, New York, Texas, Southern US, Midwestern US, West Coast US. We're talking about 5 or 6 maximum provinces.

The incentive to have a province would be a way to reduce micromanagement -- turning your eastern border into a war machine, while your central province encourages economic growth. But a gameplay incentive is not enough, since some will still just treat their empire like a heap of micromanaged cities. Such is their choice. But having them build a provincial palace (like a forbidden palace, but limited to 5 beyond your main palace) would reduce corruption and pave the way for other ways to simplify the game.


2: EXPEDITE DOMINATION WITH SURRENDER

Rather than having to take out every city within an empire, micromanaging unit after unit, chasing down that last settler who found a city between some mountains and a desert, AI civs (or even human civs through the AI) surrender under certain circumstances, such as capture the king.

SURRENDER AND PROVINCES

By taking out a provincial palace, that province becomes yours. It will be the palace of the former civ, and won't affect the limit of palaces you can build. Essentially, all the provincial cities surrender. An immediate question is what happens to the troops in the provincial cities -- I won't just make up an answer at this point. ... I think this can be resolved though, I just won't try (yet).

Of course you can still do it the old fashioned way, and go city by city, taking the provincial palace last. But such would be a strategic choice.



ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION: MONUMENTS

Your military advisor, if he has appropriate intelligence, would tell you: "If we take out New York, Washington, and Philadelphia, the Union will certainly surrender!" Otherwise it's somewhat of a guessing game.

And if you wanted to give greater control back to the (potential) victim, let them determine the three "target" cities with some benefit. I suggest 3 national monuments. This would be different from provincial palaces in that they would have nothing to do with geography, strictly your favorite cities who deserve/need monuments.

I can't withhold my desire to re-complicate things a bit, but I'd also like to see said nations half collapse instead of entirely collapse :) E.g.: now the west coast of the Roman Empire will fight, and the east coast of the Roman Empire will remain occupied... with a potential of the West Roman Empire reclaiming its territory if it reclaims all three of said monuments.

You could even add a dimension of razing a monument upon capture, to complicate the efforts of retaking the empire. Already, though, this asymmetry and number of choices is probably much more complicated than a provincial solution.


3: SIMPLIFY POPULATION CONTROL

Rather than dealing with individual population heads and balancing the math of unhappy to happy citizens, each city has a small "meter" or something beside it, going from green to yellow to orange to red. This indicates the mood of the citizens. You pacify them, as usual, through buildings and such.

Instead of having to manage citizen mood at a municipal level, it is a provincial (or even national) phenomenon. The six cities in your western province dip below a certain level -- 2 yellow, 2 orange, 2 red; or 4 red, 2 green -- and that province begins resisting.

You thus have to spend more on luxuries in that province. A solution available off a few clicks, and something you can see coming by looking at the map... instead of predicting whether a resistence will happen when another population head appears.

(And speaking of resistence, I can't resist the urge to suggest that 2 adjacent revolting provinces should cause a civil war, a new civilization to appear as an twin of your former empire. You pick which region you want to control -- North or South, East or West, Mainland or Island.)


*****

Anyway, those would be the first three that come to mind from other posts, elaborating on ideas that have been thrown out.

I think an obvious theme is that in creating a new concept to simplify an old concept, you make way for a new complexity to emerge from the new concept (e.g.: civil war, provincial management). The hope is that the overall complexity of the new game stays in the same ballpark as the old game.

Anyone else have ideas of how to simplify Civ 3?
 
Arathorn said:
Pollution: Not eliminate it but make it somehow have a collective detrimental effect. Abstract it maybe, tie it to the city's population or SOMETHING different from the way it is now. I would even argue that it probably needs to have a stronger impact than it currently does -- right now building factories is a complete no-brainer to do in every non-totally-corrupt city. Make it an issue -- something like each pollution face has a chance of killing a pop member or something but more insidious and less obviously random.

Good call. How about pollution affecting more democratic countries -- a weariness type effect based on an abstract value? E.g.: you have 10 pollution points, so happiness goes down (one additional unhappy citizen).

Besides, how many countries under dictators give a care about pollution, let alone have the energy to devote to it?

Arathorn said:
Diplomacy: Gimpy UI elements:

I agree about the tedium of negotiating and renegotiating... it's a minigame that's kind of neat for the first time you play, but becomes tedious later on. Plus airlifting and such. I think you're on the right track -- finding generalized interfaces for these and others. E.g.: building 8 airbases lets you airlift 8 units from anywhere to anywhere in a continent / province with at least one airbase.

I seriously can't help but micromanage because I'm a perfectionist. But if they gave me other options where I still had fine control, but could do it faster, I'd easily go with it :)
 
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dont simplify anything ever you monkeys
 
Colonel said:
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dont simplify anything ever you monkeys

Hahhaha :) Yeah, I know, I like complexity as much as the next guy. But even I'll admit that adding new concepts can only make the game take twice as long.

And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the recent presentation on Civ 4 and plans have "Simplify, Simplify, Simplify" as one of the top points. It's a theme throughout the presentation as they find ways to take out "unfun" concepts from the old game. (e.g.: even when they jumped from Civ 2 to Civ 3)
 
microbe said:
Really? But in your proposal I see complexity, not simplicity.

Yeah, even I'll admit that I probably got carried away... try not to look at the stuff I added at the end with implications for new features. I guess I can't help myself.

More replacing city micromanagement with more provincial concepts of resistance. Making the domination game go faster, with less micromanagement, by conquering entire regions at a time, instead of individual cities all the time. Those are the short ideas for simplification before I muddled it up and got complex again. My bad.
 
i say Civ 4 and 5 and 6 and so on should be more and more complex and by the time they hit Civ10 it should be unbelivable complex so that to understand every thing you would have had to play all the other Civ before hand to understand each feature muhahaha have the game take a year to finish have a play by email game take YEARS muhahahahahha then after that keep getting more complex so by Civ 20 it would take a life time to play from start to finish muhahahahhaha (IM CRAZY I KNOW =)

my 69th post lol love this number
 
Colonel: Perhaps Civ 30 will simply be plugged into newborns at birth in a matrix like fashion...
 
More global commands. Hands-off mode. Dont destory my customized citizens each time the population changes, simply ensure the tax collector starves.
 
Arathorn said:
Pollution:
Diplomacy: Not the options available, which should possibly be increased some, but the interface. No more clicking through every gold possibility to get the maximum possible. No more checking every leader every turn to see what techs may or may not be available and when I can twofer/threefer. Remove silly things like every-turn map selling when there's little to no new information but which help the player against the AI.


Arathorn


Yes and a way faster A1
 
Arathorn said:
Pollution: Not eliminate it but make it somehow have a collective detrimental effect. Abstract it maybe, tie it to the city's population or SOMETHING different from the way it is now. I would even argue that it probably needs to have a stronger impact than it currently does -- right now building factories is a complete no-brainer to do in every non-totally-corrupt city. Make it an issue -- something like each pollution face has a chance of killing a pop member or something but more insidious and less obviously random.

Diplomacy: Not the options available, which should possibly be increased some, but the interface. No more clicking through every gold possibility to get the maximum possible. No more checking every leader every turn to see what techs may or may not be available and when I can twofer/threefer. Remove silly things like every-turn map selling when there's little to no new information but which help the player against the AI.

Gimpy UI elements: Things like airlifting are way more tedious and complicated than they should be -- it should be universalized, much like unit support was. Loading and unloading units on ships is a UI disaster -- a better method should ideally be found. No stack bombard option, which would save a TON of time.Arathorn

Nice ideas but the first one about pollution is the one I want to talk about briefly. I think that making it have a national effect rather than affecting one city at a time would be a terrific additon to Civ IV but I do not think that building a factory should have an effect so detrimental that you may consider not building one in your core cities. It is supposed to be a no-brainer, a city improvement just like the market place. You always build the market place in at least your main cities, it is one of the most important city improvements in the game. I think factories are supposed to be this way too and besides what great power didn't build factories all major countries today have tons of factories.
 
Pollution.... It can come and go, but don't make me waste my time telling workers to clean it up!
 
I think complexity is not the big problem, as long as the mechanics are understandeable, but what really worries me sometimes about Civ III is the amount of micromanaging needed and the UI. I don't play games with lots of Civs because checking which CIv has a new tech and whom I sell my techs first can last really long (and it doesn't make the game itself easier or harder).
So, there are a lot of things that can be simplified without taking away complexity, just taking away time consuming stuff!
 
A few thoughts.

Reality is the makers of Civ have every intention of simplifying Civ 3 to make room for new game concepts. Unless I've grossly misinterpretted the situation. When all is said and done, I think a few concepts from Civ will be simpler -- even if just in how they're managed.

To save on worker micromanagement, pollution should clean itself up automatically. If your civ pollutes at a constant rate, pollution "tiles" (or units or however they want to measure it) will stay constant. If you start polluting more, you get more. If you stop polluting, it'll start to disappear after a few turns. And every 10 pollution squares makes a few citizens unhappy. Damn environmentalists.

I'd cut out the reduced productivity. Maybe global warming could still happen, even though the Bush administration has said there is no evidence it actually exists :)



On automated micromanagement...

Giving users a choice between micromanagement and AI, to me, is a worthless enterprise. Not because I hate micromanagement, but because the AI is the same AI that the opponents use. And if the player wants to beat the AI, he can't use the same AI his opponents are using. This is why people micromanage -- do things like trade maps every turn, keep wraps on when other civs find new technologies, constantly play with their build-orders, and move individual military units to specific squares.

I think the contraversial solution is to make micromanagement completely unnecessary. Have more of the game's strategy work off "macromanagement" -- things that affect larger chunks of your empire, if not your entire empire.
 
I'd really like to be able to turn features on and off for each game. I'd like the ability to turn corruption on, or turn it completly off for different game play etc... I just dont like being constrained to one specific (or rather specific rule set) with the only way to be able to change it is to go into the editor. Speaking of the editor, I think that interface could be simplified a bit to. For example, when editting units, have the ability to do blank to all units, or all sea units etc. So I could easily add one movement to all sea units or something like that. I remember it being very tedius to give all bombard capable units lethal bombard.
 
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