What's a Tech "Worth"

[Virtual Alex]

I often read in stories threads and other threads that "Engineering was sold for max value" or something like that. Phrases that imply how much a tech is actually worth. How do I know this? Is it based on beaker count? How do I know the beaker count?

 

[Propeos Tzu]

Would somebody mind answering this guy? This is something I'd definitely wan't to know as well.

 

[MAS]

The beaker count depends on map size and difficulty, and a base value. (I once found a list of base tech costs somewhere, but I can't find it anymore)

After that, it is modified by how many civ you know that know the tech, and how many civ you once knew that where completely wiped out.

This is tracked for each civ separately, so a tech may be cheaper to you than your neighbor, if you know more civ that know the tech than your neighbor does. It is actually worth it in the early game to block a civ from getting contact with an other civ so you can trade with both of them, and you pay them both half price and they both pay you full price... Until they get galleys out and find each other that way...

"Engineering was sold for max value" implies that the player was the only civ who knew the tech for the civ it was traded to.
The player had a monopoly on it.
It usually does not mean the player got everything in return it can possible get, becouse that is only possible if the AI actually has enough gold for you to ask. But this is rarely the case in the early game.

 

[Tone]

I can't answer all of your question but maybe if I get the ball rolling.

The cost of a tech in beakers depends upon the base cost (available from the editor) which is then modified by the size of the map and the level of the game. It can be reduced by knowing a civ that has already got that tech. Nethog's tech tree for C3C includes the base cost in the information given. CivAssist will tell you the cost in beakers for you to research a given tech but be aware that this cost takes into account any contacts you have and so this may not be the same for each AI. (This is one of the reasons why a skilled player will make every effort to make contacts with everyone asap.) TechCalc is a utility that will calculate this information for you and enable you to change the number of civs known, etc to get the tech cost for the AI, but you'll need an embassy with them to know how many contacts they have.

How does this relate to the value? Well in general the amount of gold that the AI is willing to pay is in proportion to the beaker value for that AI but some techs are more valuable because of what they give. Government techs are rated much more highly than their research cost would suggest and Nationalism has a relatively insane value due to the ability of drafting. forming MPPs and mobilizing for war.

The only way I know whether I've got max value from a trade is when the AI still has more cash to give but won't. Personally speaking that doesn't bother me. I'll sell a tech when it's in my interests to sell and hold onto it when it isn't. Getting a decent amount in the trade is often important but getting max value is not.

Edit: MAS beat me to it in trying to get the ball rolling!

 

[vmxa]

I can't answer to what someone means by max value as that could be anything. To me that would mean they got all they could, even if it is not full value.

Full value is just the beakers count for an unresearch tech expressed in gold. A tech is worth a 1000 gold, if it cost a 1000 beakers to research when no one else know the tech.

I guess max vaule could be anything, say you knew all the civs in the game and none had the tech. You trade it to all, you could say you got max vaule, especially if one of the civs paid full value.

Each additional civ will pay less and less as the tech is devauled as more and more civs learn it. That is due to the fact that if they did not buy it, they could research it for less beakers as more civs learn the tech.

Have you ever notice a tech drop in research time? This is often because someone else has noow researched the tech and the formula has a cost that considers how many know if, that you know.

Of course it could be that you just make more lib/unis or scientist as well, but you can tell which is the cause.

 

[TimBentley]

The base trading cost for a tech is based off the research cost in some way I haven't figured out and modified by its uses. Some significant multipliers: It appears that monopolies, conscription, mobilization, spaceship parts (although I have a feeling this may just increase the price by ~300g), and government double the price (these don't multiply, so nationalism would be worth 3 times as much). Optional techs are worth 2/3 as much.

 

[vmxa]

The intrinsic value is not affected by and extraneous values. Those values just affect the AI's interest in buying them or selling them, not the true value.

You can only get the full value from the Ai as best as I can tell, not more. Humans will pay more than full value as they understand importance in some situations.

The AI understand full value and that limits what they will pay. IOW they know that Nationalism at regent on a std map and no one else knows it, is worth 2880.

They will not pay more than that.

 

[Tone]

Either I'm misreading you vmxa or what you are saying is not true.

If you are saying that the value to the AI for any tech is based only on the current research cost them I'm afraid that this is not true.

I play a fair number of research-based games and I have a large library of old saves so I could test this fairly quickly on a Standard Regent map. I found the save where I was just about to get into the IA, pressed play and got Steam as my free tech. I then gifted the Greeks into the IA and they got Nationalism. Both techs have a base value of 120 and so according to your theory, the AI should be happy to trade the techs as there is no trade bonus on this level yet my advisor told me that I was way off the mark.

I then gifted the Sumerians up from the AA to the IA. The reason for choosing the Sumerians was that they were on an island and had not made contact with any other civ. I had an embassy with all civs except Sumeria to confirm this to be true. When the Sumerians entered the IA, they got Medicine as their freebie. I swapped Steam for this and then attempted to trade both techs for Nationalism and you can see the result below.

As far as the Greeks are concerned, I have two monopoly techs with a total base value of 220 which they will still not swap for a tech with base value 120. I think that this confirms that it not simply a desire to trade for nationalism that is high but that it actually values certain techs more highly than others beyond the research cost of that tech.

Save attached should you wish to confirm this yourself.

 

[vmxa]

Tone I do not see anything in what you said that conflicts with what I was trying to say. It is true that they will place more emphasis one tech that offer thing such as wonders or units or governments.

That does not change what i said. The full value of the tech is its beaker cost and they won't pay more than that for the tech. The fact that they will not trade you a tech for even more than it is worth is a seperate issue.

Yes they often will not take even more than full value for a tech, just as you would not under the right conditions. Just as they often will not sell things for far less than they are worth to humans, even when it is is their best interest to do it, whereas humans will sell things cheap or even gift them.

 

[TimBentley]

On regent and standard (however, the world size bug may been in effect), where the research cost is 120, they would pay 197g for a tech with no benefits, and 397g for a tech that allows mobilization, for example.

 

[Tone]

That does not change what i said. The full value of the tech is its beaker cost and they won't pay more than that for the tech. The fact that they will not trade you a tech for even more than it is worth is a seperate issue.

OK. I've done some further testing. I played the save again, but stored up a small stack of cash before entering the IA. Eventaully I got it so that the isolated Sumerians got Medicine. I was then able to trade for Nationalism with the others and still give my stack of cash to the Sumerians, to leave me with Steam and Nationalism and the Sumerians with Medicine and a shiny stack of gold, donated by yours truly.

First point. They will pay more than the beaker cost. Steam is a monolpoly tech as far as they are concerned and they will give me a maximum of 4738g. (beaker cost 2880)

Second point. Nationalism has a much higher value to them. It is also a monopoly tech as far as they are concerned and yet they will give 5579g PLUS Medicine, which is a monopoly tech as far as the whole world is concerned. That's quite a bit more than the 2880 beaker cost that you have predicted and also a massive amount more than they would give for Steam, which has the same beaker cost.

Conclusion: The value is affected by aspects such as the ability to draft for both selling to and buying from the AI.

Save attached should anyone wish to play around with the testing.

(On a sidenote, this save is quite embarassing. I'm glad that it's a very old one!)

 

[vmxa]

What is the size of the map and the level? If it is above regent and or a larger map, then the cost is more than 2880. On emperor and large map it cost 4800.

 

[gmaharriet]

What is the size of the map and the level?

I looked at it with CAII. It's Regent Std P6 with 8 civs (all still alive).

 

[Tone]

I found a bit of time to look in more detail at this. Having an isolated civ means that I should be able to find out the prices they are willing to pay for a variety of techs once I gift them a stack of money. Once I checked that they were researching Map Making, I then proceded to gift and trade them up the tech tree and got the following results. (Standard map, Regent level, 8 civs-none eliminated, Sumeria has only contact with me.)

tech		base 	beakers	price    	price/beaker

Steam		120	2880	4738		1.645

Mono		36	864	1466		1.697
Feud		32	768	2683		3.493
Eng		36	864	1468		1.699
Chiv		32	768	1323		1.723
Theo		40	960	1627		1.695
Edu		44	1056	1775		1.681
Astro		56	1344	2268		1.688
Bank		52	1248	2081		1.667
Music Th	40	960	1081		1.126
Inv		44	1056	1796		1.701
Gunpowder	48	1152	1961		1.702
Chem		60	1440	2389		1.659
Phys		64	1536	2544		1.656
Mag		68	1632	2726		1.670
ToG		68	1632	2705		1.657
Metal		64	1536	2549		1.660

Phil		6	144	311		2.160
Lit		10	240	302		1.258
Curr		16	384	688		1.792
Constr		20	480	868		1.808
Republic	28	672	1536		2.286

(beakers=research cost. price=the maximum amount of gold that Sumeria was willing to give me for the tech.)

There are some strange results there!

Philosophy is worth a stack of cash when compared with its research cost. Does the AI think that because it gives a free tech its worth paying for?!!!

Music Th is worth relatively less, maybe due to being an optional tech, but Chivalry still holds it value. JSB has not been built so its not because of that.

Why does the cost/beaker ratio vary so much?

I did a quick look at a chieftain standard map under the same conditions, found a civ that had no contacts and started the process again.

tech		base 	beakers	price 		price/beaker

Phil		6	72	311		4.319
Lit		10	120	309		2.575
Curr		16	192	688		3.583
Constr		20	240	868		3.617

The price/beaker ratio is double for all techs when compared with Regent (except Lit, which is slightly more than 2). Presumably this is because of the AI-AI trade value being 200% at this level but I always thought that it only affected trade between AIs.

This raises more questions than it answers but I'm afraid that negotiating with the AI right down to the last gp after having played out a stack of turns building up a decent cash reserve in games that have already been won is starting to get a bit tedious. I'm tempted to look at a higher level game to test the AI-AI trade bonus effect and also to look at the cost of IA techs to see if the 1.7 ratio is only in the MA. However I'm tempted by the current HOF gauntlet even more so this is it from me for now!

 

[vmxa]

Interesting, well I guess I do not know the answers. I never have seen any report of the Ai paying more. I guess because it is uncommon for them to have cash, even at high levels.

When they do, it usually is because they are a runaway and you have nothing to offer. I see them with cash in AW games, but you cannot trade.

So to the original question, I would think if they are willing to pay more than a tech cost, there can be no MAX or at least only the max for that time and setting.

In the games I have read the ideal is to get full price from the first civ you trade with. Maybe they meant the max that was available, not the theoretical max.

 

[TimBentley]

There seems to be a constant factor of about 71g (on regent) added to the cost for some reason (so the cost/beaker would be higher for cheaper techs), and there's some other multiplier somewhere. There's some interaction with attitude and aggression I haven't investigated much yet. My results so far:
optional tech: 2/3 multiplier
irrigation: +7
bridges: +3
disease: +7
conscription: doubles price
mobilization: doubles price
recycling: +1
precision bombing: +1
better wealth: +3
faster workers: +13
diplomats: +3
MPP: +3
MA: +3
ROP: +3
embargo: +3
sea trade: +7
ocean trade: +13
map trading: +3
comm trading: +3
worker action: +1
spaceship part: doubles price, but slightly higher than others
government: doubles price
attacker (no resource): +17
defender (no resource): +23
attacker (resource): +10
defender (resource): +17
naval transport: +10
other unit(e.g. catapult): +3
resource: +27
small wonder: +3
great wonder: +10 (only if it hasn't been built)
palace: +3
specialist: +3
improvement: +3
improvement/wonder that allows larger city size: an additional +7
prerequisite for other tech: +1
Sacrifices, bonus tech, and reveal map have no effect.

I got values of 310g for philosophy and literature. I got a value of 871g for chivalry, so something's weird there.

The research costs are the same on chieftain and regent.

 

[Virtual Alex]

Wow this is more information than I know what to do with. Thanks Tone! You're doing some importiant research that you might want to compile into the academy. Some new findings one what the most valuable techs are to the AI is useful indeed.

 

[Tone]

Wow this is more information than I know what to do with. Thanks Tone! You're doing some importiant research that you might want to compile into the academy.

It looks like Tim has much more of an understanding of what is going on here. If any article is going to be written, it'll be him rather than me!

@Tim:

 

[AutomatedTeller]

what about relative culture? the (manual? civilopedia?) says that having more culture makes trading easier - does it effect costs, too?

btw - this is great stuff, Tim.

Are those values straight cost? So if you were to mod the game and removed the mauseleum of mausallos, you would get 300 for Philo?

 

[TimBentley]

what about relative culture? the (manual? civilopedia?) says that having more culture makes trading easier - does it effect costs, too?

I haven't tested that much, but I don't think it does.

Are those values straight cost? So if you were to mod the game and removed the mauseleum of mausallos, you would get 300 for Philo?

Apparently 301 (I haven't figured out the formula for the base cost yet, so I'll use the actual value of 311), as a monopoly on standard regent to a civ with aggression level 2 and polite (maybe worse) or better, as far as I can tell.