whats so great about communism?

[Old n Slow]

Glad to hear the good things about Comm. I've yet to try it. I generally toggle between Democracy & Fundy -- sometimes two or three times in a game. My first switch to Fundy gives the breathing space to upgrad my infrastructure & allow safe growth into the Bab patrolled areas.

My second switch is usually my first conquest effort after Tactics. Another nice feature of Fundy is the tendency of the AI to slow down their science efforts.

One of these days I'll get out of the box faster & discover the full set of choices.

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Not at all. If you're really good at handling trade and science then communism can get you similar results to those you'd have if you were really bad at handling trade and science in a democracy. And you'd have to be pretty awful at trade for fundy to even come close to a poor democracy.

Actually with communist celebrating cities you can get a great trade bonus, equal to a good democracy (because you get the free content citizens in each city, no riot factor, etc you can therefore have a huge empire without even worrying about unhappiness).

 

[duke o' york]

I can't believe that no-one, not even Simon, has come up with the obvious answer to this question! What's so great about Communism? The uniforms!!

Anyway.
The trouble with the arguments you are making pro communism with regard to arrows is that they are based on celebration whereas you don't even need to throw enormous amounts of arrows into luxuries to get these results in democracy. In fact, in democracy, the more tax that your cities produce, the happier the citizens are. So you can use a bank as a cathedral that gets you cash, just like you can use a cathedral as a bank in fundy!

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

True, but you can crank up the lux in commie, when the cities are celebrating you can often run on 20% or so which isn't so bad all things considered, especially if the democracy is suffering unhappiness from having it's trading ships out and about (assuming this is before galleons become available). I always thought it was silly that my caravan laden caravels should cause my citizens to become unhappy.

 

[ArmOrAttAk]

Funny I posted that i never use it and it sucks, my last 2 games I was forced to use it. One the greeks kept attacking me and they had way too many cities, near 2 screenfuls 24. They had to be weakened before they became too strong. Representative govt.s wouldn't let me, Fundamentalism would've put me behind tech. Communism was perfect right out of monarchy with the SOL. Next game was similar except it was the English. That's why this game is so cool, many different strategies you can use whatever suits your taste. Somebody put it well when they said monarchy without the corruption.

 

[unknown_spirit]

I don't think there's anything actually WRONG with a commie govt. I use it until I can build a Women's Suffrage, because not only is you're rule absolute, but it's not bad on Science and Luxury. I think it's an ok all-round government. Perfect until u get WF and can go into Democracy without fear. Republic is worse than Commie. Tell u what, I'd rather have Commie than Monarchy!

 

[Kev]

It's all about style, really.

While trying to improve my game, I make the effort to study the methods of those I feel are the better players of the game. Some of my "teachers" were Shadowdale, Starlifter, Andu Indorin, Smash, et. al. One thing I noticed about their games was that they tended to go Monarchy --> Republic --> Democracy and then stay there. They also traded and expanded like madmen.

I had experimented with Communism, but when I saw that all of the players that I thought were the "top flight" (in sigle player) stayed in Democracy, I tried to improve that part of my game.

As a result, I don't think that there is any equal to a well-set up and well-run Democracy. With the UN and Women's Suffrage, warring is quite possible with very little interference. Growth can be huge with WLT*Days, and if you can get to the point where you can send out some trade freight EVERY turn (quite possible if done right), you can actually get MORE THAN ONE TECH in a single turn - not to mention that you'll HAVE to spend the cash you have or you'll hit the max (at least on my version which stops at ~30,000).

We had a similar debate about this in our Democracy Game. Those of you who participate here should really check it out. I've already learned a bunch of new things, and I've been playing Civ for like 7 years! It's open to all.

 

[starlifter]

by Duke o' York:

It's the ideal beginner government as it's not terribly weak in any department, but then again not terribly strong anywhere either. ...

Nice summation!

by Sodak:

Communism is a good wartime gov't, especially if you need to continue strong research. With heavy trade, it can net you a tech every 2-4 turns -

Actually, it is possible to gain an advance every turn using Communism and a single Scientest, with about 70%tax, 0% science, and 30% Lux. It requires a high degree of up front planning, and a diversion of resources from the War front, however. And normally, people are in Communism to fight....

Though many civvers tend to gravitate to Democracy (including me, of course)... there is what I might call a "Power Communism", and yes even a "Power Fundamentalism" which are quite effective. The huge huge caveat is, of course, the Commie and Fundy can't celebrate to grow an empire. And the Catch-22 is that if you use Democracy to max your cities (even Republic won't max your cities), then there is very little reason to step down to Communism after growing under Democracy.

Might be an intersting thread for someone to start if they are really interested. My personal use of "Power Communism" reflects many of the same principles as the "Power Democracy", but there are differences.
About spies.... the vet spies produced by Communism are of little advantage as compared to Democracy. The ultimate difference can be expressed in shield value, as I did sometime last Fall. The idea is that you produce 2 to 3 non-vets, use them for simple tasks like sabotage, 1 or 2 will die, but the survivor will gain vet status. This simply costs extra shields (or gold) and a production day (or two if you are a tightwad in a one shield city, LOL), but the Democracy provided copious amounts of both. With say 200 non-vet Democratic spies, the surviving 60 to 90 Vet spies are then used for critical tasks like nuking and bribing cities. And besides, the "dead" spies still did something before their demise. Vets also do the dirty if you are at peace, to reduce the odds of capture (and the collapse of your Democracy).

If you really enjoy nuking, a Power Fundy is for you! Fundy lags to an estabished Democracy, though. Even when the tech tree is finished. But it can be a good transition government if you build the SoL ASAP, and want to build infrastructure for an up and coming Democracy. Just don't hang out in Fundy for long.... it's not the 50% science hit that gets you (that's all smoke anyway -- you only need one Scientist and 0% science to get an advance every turn in a PF)... its the lack of growth (i.e., celebrating WLTP). Stagnation is a massive handicap.

 

[starlifter]

by Kev:

...you can actually get MORE THAN ONE TECH in a single turn - not to mention that you'll HAVE to spend the cash you have or you'll hit the max (at least on my version which stops at ~30,000).

Typically, I expect 2-3 advances per day in late game if I commit any science to the effort. Freight alone, plus a scientist (0% sci rate) provide one advance per day. Typically, 30% science should provide an advance, and 60% two, for a total of 3 advances in one day in the Advanced Flight-Nuclear Power area of the tech tree. BTW, it is not unusual to sustain 5 or 6 advances per day after Computers.

After Adv Flight in a PD, You'll typically finish the tech tree in a few days. FT is all that is left, and in fact, freight is really only producing gold by that point anyway.... the science is not too helpful after Stealth and Fusion. But it can be fun to redneck a civ's Legions with your vet Stealth Fighters, LOL...

In GOTM 16, where I'm about 1000 AD, no civ will reach Gunpower or Navigation (except for the hapless Sioux, with their lone remaining size 2 city). Normally, however, at least one civ is nipping at your heels until about Corporation, when the PD pulls away rapidly.

We had a similar debate about this in our Democracy Game. Those of you who participate here should really check it out.

What is that? I'm unfamiliar with it, but will follow some links later to see .

 

[starlifter]

by MajorGeneral2:

War is nearly impossible with Democracy, and Fundy slows research.

LOL, I guess that is the common perception. The first is completely untru, the second is highly exaggerated. In fact, it is possible for the rate of Fundy research to equal that of a Power Democracy at a given point in time (and in a specific case of one advance per day), thus seemingly negating the science advantage of a Democracy. And it is true, but like stepping in fresh cow manure in the barnyard, consequences are going to ooze up in other areas, especially tax revenue and growth.

As always, if you extract the full power of Communism or Fundy, it will be almost as difficult as managing a PD, and will take significant resources away from any conflicts to build infrastructure and specialist units like Galleons, Transports, Ironclads, and Caravans in mid game. You can't get a PC or PF going in one turn any more than you can get a PD going in one turn. But unlike a Democracy, a Communist and Fundy gov't will not collapse if you "John Wayne" the transition period, or get sidetracked with a sudden war along the way.

 

[MajorGeneral2]

We can sum Commy up like this: flexible. It allows quick response to adverse situations, even for those not thinking 200 turns ahead
It allows science competition with Demos, warfare with Fundies, at the same time! So, almost regardless of how much trouble you get into, Commy can save you.
Oh, Starlifter, I've said in other threads that Fundy can get very nice trade numbers, and I realize Demos can be formidable in war with bribing/blitzkrieg warfare. However, these require things to go well throughout most of the game. As mentioned earlier, though, its all a matter of style.

 

[sethos]

@MajorGeneral2
It's very easy to begin a war in Demo. Ask the concerning CIV to get off your land, they will declare war on you. Ask your allies to begin a war against your enemy, their allies will attack your ally and your ally will ask you for help - et voila. Let a crusader/dragoon ride over their land.
You will not lose your reputation nor your citizens will revolt.

 

[starlifter]

Oh, Starlifter, I've said in other threads that Fundy can get very nice trade numbers, and I realize Demos can be formidable in war with bribing/blitzkrieg warfare. However, these require things to go well throughout most of the game. As mentioned earlier, though, its all a matter of style

A matter of style... Absolutely! And every civ player has his/her own unique style, too. And as I've said in other threads (but probably not often enough), there is no "right" way to Civ.... it's self-critiquing by 2020 anyway.

In fact, there is no single "do it this way" cookbook. Even in GOTMs, when the special characteristic of speed of finished is emphasized (which in turn emphasizes certain styles as hihger scoring unter GOTM rules), there are times when the "early republic" for instance is not practical, due to conflict and terrain (check out GOTM 6 or 7 (the one where we started as Indians, and contended with early Viking and Celt wars)... a lot of us stayed in Commie for centuries due to fights and terrain!).

For a long time, I personally played a Great Library-centric game with Communism (or Fundy) as the primary gov't that built the empire. Every time I switched to Deomcracy, my empire collapsed. Being an American, I was pretty hacked that Democracy=dismal failure. So I shied away, and stuck with GL/Commie for months. That approach is still as great now as it used to be....

In fact, I personally recommend players (in some recent posts, too) that can handle Prince and King just jump up to Deity (or at least Emperor), but don't get bogged down in all the complex trade, pollution, production, etc. at first.... and don't jump right into Republic/Demo. Keep to Monarchy/Commie or Monarchy/Fundy, and get the feel of the early thru mid game speed and tempo of Deity (particularly happiness and research issues). The hardest part is from a few turns into the game through about Corp/Auto (at Deity).... late game (developed empire) is actually not too hard at any level. But getting there can be tough, and it is even tougher via the Democracy route.
But the most important thing is to have fun no matter how you play your own game!!

 

[tory_kev]

Communism, unless u use spies, is useless. Your civ should be able to fight wars in democracy and research in fundamentalism. It becomes even more useless on giga maps as you can easily run around on the other side of the planet with a large battleship fleet and 100 nukes loaded unto subs without having problems with unhappiness. Better yet I found you can get down to 1 tech per turn on fundamentalism on giga maps.
I also think communism is completely useless in reality, just ask the starving and poor in eastern europe.

The things that divide us aren't as great as the things that unite us - Vote Tory

 

[starlifter]

Hi tory_kev, I see you're a new poster to CFC, so Welcome!

100 nukes loaded unto subs without having problems with unhappiness.

LOL, I'd like to see a .SAV of the post-holocaust of 100 Nukes being launched!!! Bet there were a few pollution issues in that particular game!!

In Fundy, I normally set zero science and get an advance just about every turn by celebrating and using lots of freight.... some trade details on Power Fundamentalism are here.

 

[tory_kev]

I firmly believe that war is not even part of the game until u finnish the tech tree. Fair enough you have to give the ai gold or tech every now and again but hey when i finnish the tech tree i give all the techs to the ai so i have a challenge in beating them. so dem until the end of tech then u fundy it all the way to that last sweet sip of ai blood

 

[tory_kev]

i think they mite have been wiped in my mates format but i will search for those saved games for u starlifter, it was the sweetest thing ever, he had just bought sdi for each city, mwyhahahaha nuked b4 the cavalry arrived, i love it

 

[starlifter]

i will search for those saved games for u starlifter,

Cool... people don't use the "Upload" option very often, but it is great for games & graphics & descriptions, etc. It works very well for .SAVs, and a Zip program can really crunch a .SAV to a very small size for almost instant up/download! Feel free to post any games!

 

[unknown_spirit]

Originally posted by tory_kev
I firmly believe that war is not even part of the game until u finnish the tech tree. Fair enough you have to give the ai gold or tech every now and again but hey when i finnish the tech tree i give all the techs to the ai so i have a challenge in beating them. so dem until the end of tech then u fundy it all the way to that last sweet sip of ai blood

Ah, you play your game just as I do! Glad to see some1 agrees. I never give the AI any money or units. Why bother? They only become bored with you again anyway. I just make a peace treaty then never talk to them again until it comes the the WDT (World Domination Tour) at the end.

Also, Communism is not entirely useless. It provides a good transition phase between Monarchy and getting the Women's Suffrage and the bliss of Democracy. It is a very average government, ok in every department. Up to 80% on any of your sci/tax/lux rates. That isn't terrible. Why stick with Monarchy when you have this? Also, Republic is rubbish, in every respect and is not a good idea... EVER.

 

[starlifter]

Also, Republic is rubbish, in every respect and is not a good idea... EVER.

This is true in some games and conditions, but in many games, a Republic works better than anything until Democracy. Republics can grow very rapidly even in the BC era, and if you have a SSC and KRC, you can have a size 20 city and lots of 12's when the AI is just trying to get up to 9 or 10. Very very powerful to use if you undertand the subtleties of trade, too. The corruption & waste is a lot less than Monarchy, too. You can also wage war with great effect in a Republic, and do not have the severe happiness penalties of an early Democracy.

Remember that a Republic can be founded hundreds or thousands of years before a Democracy or Commie gov't.

But every game is different, and knowing what is best when is part of the puzzle!!