what's the deal with Longbowmen..

[BiatchGuy]

I've never built a lot of Longbowmen because I'e always thought they were kind of pointless. Archers are great in ancient times, but by the time Longbowmen come around, you have mounted units available to you so why bother?

But then in one of my wars, Longbowmen were absolutely slaughtering me (including a regular one that picked off my Elite Cavalry sitting atop a mountain!) and I got to thinking, hmm, maybe the Longbowmen have use after all.

opinions on the Longbowman?


and yeah, I know, this is probably a pretty stupid topic

 

[friedmad]

i've only ever built longbowmen if i dont have any horse resources - which has been rare.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I don't care too much for Longbowman either, since they are so slow on a huge map, and their defense is pitiful. But, if you don't have access to horses, you don't really have a choice....

 

[chiefpaco]

An attack of 4 means they can beat anyone in their times - knights, musketmen, pikemen, even cavalry. Knights are expensive to produce, and deservedly so, they are very powerful. Longbowmen serve as a great balancing unit for those who lack resources.

While this means they are still only marginally useful for those with a grand empire, they are very buildable by your small & half-corrupt cities (i.e. towns with maybe just 3-4 shields productive) where knights are not. I like to have a few to mop up annoying stray attackers & pillagers. Also, they make for fine riot & military police.

Recently, I've been playing with the player1's patch suggestion mod (available on the official Civ3 site). In it, longbowmen's cost is reduced by 10 shields. Also, he made them upgradeable to riflemen. This is doubly useful because thier cost is now less than half of a knight (30 to 70), require no resources, and have the same attack. Also, they are upgradeable so you don't get stuck with them. Furthermore, upon discovering Nationalism, they are removed from the build queues so the AI can't build them in the modern times.

 

[Jason Fox]

Longbowmen are effective attack units and much less costly than knights (hurts less to lose two or three to a pikeman.) Problem is, with one movement and terrible defense, they have real issues with getting attacked by faster moving units on open ground and aren't very good at holding captured cities in the event of a counter attack. Travel with pikemen.

However, at home they can devastate units that land on your shores (assuming roads, they can catch them too) so a few of them kicking around while other offensive units fight abroad often works out.

 

[Random Passerby]

If I beeline for gunpowder and skip chivalry, I usually build 5-20 longbowmen as expendable heavy attackers. It seems that 3 or 4 techs into the Middle Ages is always exactly the time that the AI decides that it needs a war, and having the first 4-attack units can make a big difference (of course, if you're fighting Persia... good luck). These initial longbowmen are great at picking off enemies in open terrain, and can be used to grab a few cities to use as advance bases--this is very important if you don't share a good border with your enemy, because if it takes 10-15 turns for your pikemen and horsemen to reach your desired attacking point, you don't want to wait until you can upgrade them before sending them off.

 

[Zouave]

I Edited the useless helicopter unit into a CROSSBOWMAN available for all civs - 2.3.1. Archers upgrade to them.

Longbowmen become, as they should be, an English UU, at 4.3.1, with an increase in shield cost. For Firaxis to give Longbowmen a 4.1.1 (and War Elephants a 4.3.2) proves they know nothing about warfare or history. Elephants should be 3.1.2, and NOT be able to be airlifted!

Many English offensive armies in the medieval period were almost entirely Longbowmen.

A Men-at-Arms offensive infantry unit could also be added.

 

[friedmad]

i agree with longbowmen should be better defensed, but only a 2, not a 3. the 2 should be for terrain cover - firing from wooded areas, etc.

but traditionally, logbowmen could be entirely routed or wiped out if attacked from the flank or rear.

elephants are given a high defense because they were traditionally armored and very tough to kill/disable.

 

[friedmad]

I Edited the useless helicopter unit into a CROSSBOWMAN available for all civs - 2.3.1. Archers upgrade to them.

I agree the helicopter is totally useless - the only time I ever built one was to see what it could do. BUT, if it could be modified to be a flying transport, that would make it worth building. the drawback would be if it came into the operational radius of an enemy fighter on superiority mission, it could be pretty easily shot down.

either that or someone could make a C-131 starlifter trasport - those could carry mech infantry and tanks or any other land unit pretty easily like they do in the real world.

In Civ2 i had made a starlifter air transport which was pretty sweet. too bad that ability was left out of Civ3.

 

[Amask]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
...and their defense is pitiful...

I usually escort them with musketeers/pikeman/spearmen, and it works out Ok. But it is right that knights are better - sometimes I just do not have the resources.

 

[napoleon526]

Originally posted by Zouave
I Edited the useless helicopter unit into a CROSSBOWMAN available for all civs - 2.3.1. Archers upgrade to them.

Longbowmen become, as they should be, an English UU, at 4.3.1, with an increase in shield cost. For Firaxis to give Longbowmen a 4.1.1 (and War Elephants a 4.3.2) proves they know nothing about warfare or history...

I agree. Historically, English Longbowmen were brutally effective both offensively (against William Wallace's Scots at Falkirk) and defensively (against the French knights at Crecy and Agincourt). Longbowmen were actually responsible for the decline of chivalry, since a commoner with a good aim could kill a nobleman in full armor at ranges up to 100 yards, and were effective against lightly armored troops at twice that range.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by chiefpaco
Recently, I've been playing with the player1's patch suggestion mod (available on the official Civ3 site). In it, longbowmen's cost is reduced by 10 shields. Also, he made them upgradeable to riflemen. This is doubly useful because thier cost is now less than half of a knight (30 to 70), require no resources, and have the same attack. Also, they are upgradeable so you don't get stuck with them. Furthermore, upon discovering Nationalism, they are removed from the build queues so the AI can't build them in the modern times.

For your info, v1.2 of MOD is out.
Now compatibile with 1.21f patch.

Can be downloaded from Apolyton (link below).

 

[chiefpaco]

Player1. I've got it. Post your patch on CFC! You can get traffic here too. Actually, I've been finding I've been sticking up for your mod more than once. Some homework for you on a recent/current thread:
Cure for Cancer
Go for the publicity!

Longbowmen:
4.1.1 does not look very attractive for 40 shields to me. Immortals are 4.2.1 and cost 30 shields. Even swordsmen are a bargain at 3.2.1 & 30 shields. I think longbowmen should be 30 shields, 4.2.1, or maybe even 5.1.1 (very good attackers, very vunerable on defense).