When are you starting your space race

[Becomedeath]

So I've got a load more games under my belt now and think I've nailed the changes in CivV.

However, I'm finding that my space race is coming through a lot later than in Civ4. Currently playing on Prince, I'm building the Apollo Program circa 1900-1950 which occurs to me is rather late and despite going hardcore on Science in a couple of games, I'm having real difficulty in getting it down much further.

Does this seem late to anyone else? When are you getting into space?

 

[civnoob13]

I'm doing it even later than that sometimes. It is harder than in past versions, definitely.

 

[Bob_]

When I warmonger a lot on emperor (which is typically the case) I start that spaceship arround turn 300. That is arround 1850 I think. And it is not the case that I was thinking about winning as fast as possible. Warmongering - my friend - is the key to almost every problem.

 

[MoonFlare]

I only go for space victory. It has the best victory screen. It's still static and boring but that spaceship on that oil painting looks really good...
Around 1900 on normal speed.

 

[MadDjinn]

You need better science output and Great Scientists generation + Research Agreements.

You *should* still be able to hit Rocketry ~turn 250. (only semi-optimally) How many bulbs/Oxford/Scientific Revolution you save for clearing up to the last two parts is the key.

 

[apocalypse105]

When i am entering the industrial era and i know i have a lot of population and cities i may consider going space victory.

If i do i start teching up to plastics and ignore the other technologies onece i get my research labs i speed through the technology tree...


I personally thinx Research lab are a must for space victory

And like other victories you have to plan ahead once you reach end of renaissance you want to have a really high population and some surplus happiness..

 

[Creepy Old Man]

I still haven't got a space victory. I always end up getting diplomatic or conquest first.

If the AI is competitive technologically, then they build the UN, and I win diplomacy. If they're behind in tech, then I effortlessly take over the whole map.

I've tried deliberately not taking either of these victories. This means that for many turns I have to sit and do nothing, picking up the last few techs, knowing that I could win at any time simply by telling my GRDs to move into the city they've been staring at for so long.

 

[snarzberry]

I'm not sure if it's worth going up for research labs if you play to take a bunch of free techs at the end. . At that part of the tech tree I'm relying on RAs and bulbs plus oxford and scientific revolution. Labs would only help out with a few techs at best, and it's a few tech detour to get them in the first place. My spaceship usually launches after 250 and before 290. I know there are much faster times, so maybe there's something I'm not seeing...

 

[MadDjinn]

I still haven't got a space victory. I always end up getting diplomatic or conquest first.

If the AI is competitive technologically, then they build the UN, and I win diplomacy. If they're behind in tech, then I effortlessly take over the whole map.

I've tried deliberately not taking either of these victories. This means that for many turns I have to sit and do nothing, picking up the last few techs, knowing that I could win at any time simply by telling my GRDs to move into the city they've been staring at for so long.

If you had GDRs, then you could have had the space ship techs already. It's a matter of prioritizing the center of the tree (modern era) vs. either side.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's relative. If you really want to get a space victory since turn 1 you have a better chance to launch earlier, and you will probably roll a good map suited for that.

When you change your mind, things may take longer to achieve.

 

[Becomedeath]

I think my issue might be research agreements...

I tend to get involved in wars from fairly early on to boost my economy (or stabilise it depending on how quickly I've expanded) so I've generally only got 2 or 3 civs to do research agreements with.

Hmm...I may have to try a game where I'm nice to everyone...well, for a while anyway!

 

[aimlessgun]

Definitely need to spam as many RA's as possible with Rationalism and PT. All day every day.

Also, save your Great Scientists for the last expensive techs. Even with a small 4 city empire you should pop out 7-8 Great Scientists over the course of the game (including PT's GS), plus 2 free techs from Rationalism, plus 1 from Oxford allows you to get every required Modern and Future Era tech in one fell swoop.

I'm about to finish my first postpatch space on Deity, and after what has been a pretty poorly played game from me I'm going to finish on turn 260, just from spamming RA's and saving free techs until the end

Getting it faster probably depends quite a bit on the start you get as well, getting enough hammer tiles, not being too close to a bunch of angry AI's, having otherwise solid land to get you the gold needed for the RA's.

 

[wcbarney]

Definitely need to spam as many RA's as possible with Rationalism and PT. All day every day.

Also, save your Great Scientists for the last expensive techs. Even with a small 4 city empire you should pop out 7-8 Great Scientists over the course of the game (including PT's GS), plus 2 free techs from Rationalism, plus 1 from Oxford allows you to get every required Modern and Future Era tech in one fell swoop.

I'm about to finish my first postpatch space on Deity, and after what has been a pretty poorly played game from me I'm going to finish on turn 260, just from spamming RA's and saving free techs until the end

Getting it faster probably depends quite a bit on the start you get as well, getting enough hammer tiles, not being too close to a bunch of angry AI's, having otherwise solid land to get you the gold needed for the RA's.

I still find it difficult to justify spending money on RAs rather than CS alliances with Scholasticism. The from CS alliances just seems to be much more consistent and just plain more than from RAs. Plus -- my main objection to RAs -- my "research partners" seem to like to DW on me for no reason (even with friendly/neutral relations), so my RA money gets wasted.

 

[aimlessgun]

I still find it difficult to justify spending money on RAs rather than CS alliances with Scholasticism. The from CS alliances just seems to be much more consistent and just plain more than from RAs. Plus -- my main objection to RAs -- my "research partners" seem to like to DW on me for no reason (even with friendly/neutral relations), so my RA money gets wasted.

I also like seeing consistent numbers But if you get Rationalism and the Porcelain Tower (and even without the Tower), you're getting thousands of beakers instantly for just 200-300 gold. Much cheaper than maintaining a city state and you get tons more science out of it.

But yeah, if you're going for a science victory hopefully you're not running around conquering people and making everyone angry. So there of course will be the 2-3 civs next to you that will be at war with you half the time and you can't sign RA's with, but everyone else should be fair game.

 

[Becomedeath]

I've been using GS's to build science tiles if there's no immediate tech that's going to save 12+ turns.

I figured this would produce a much flatter science increase but be overall more beneficial.

Science tile (with tech bonuses - I forget which) comes it at 8 beakers pt. I've got a city that has three of them so lets call it 24 beakers pt.

Then add in the multipliers from an observatory, university, NC etc that's a fair bit of science output, (at work so I don't have the exact figures with me) but that alone equates to ~55 bpt, and that on top and in addition to the normal base rate of science from public school, library etc.

But which is better, creating a flat rate of science that will provide a long term benefit or burning GS's on short term boosts to clear one tech? Free techs are nice, but faster overall techs are better?

Oh this was all so much easier in civ 4 when you could just slap your science upto 100% and then fight wars to keep your gold up!

 

[aimlessgun]

Hmm. Well it's a bit hard to calculate accurately but I'll throw some numbers out there loosely based on the game I just played!

Let's say get your first Great Scientist off the Porcelain Tower on turn 110. Then we'll guesstimate 150 turns of Academy before you get all the techs you need.

First w/o Observatory, because frankly it's super rare I get a mountain next to my capital, which has the National College like 100% of the time hehe.

-Starts at 6BPT x 1.83 from Natty College and Uni = 11 BPT Let's say this continues for 80 turns until you get Scientific Theory on turn 190. 80 x 11 = 880 beakers.
-Now with Scientific Theory it's 8 BPT and to keep things simple say we get Free Thought at the same time (I didn't until far later, actually). So we're at 8 x 2 = 16 BPT, for 70 more turns, so 1120 beakers.

Total = 2000 beakers.

Now that is our best case Academy. Compare this to the best case bulb, Nanotechnology, at 11400 beakers.

Not even close.

Compare to a 'worst case' bulb if we're 'bulbing out' at the end and getting all the modern/future techs in a big flurry: Electronics for 6120. Still not even close.

If we say you get an Observatory for a very optimistic 125 of those 150 turns, the new figure for the Academy is about 2450 beakers, which is still not even close.

Yes, you pay upkeep on the scientists. But the Academy replaces an improvement as well, which amounts to a similar cost.

How many turns it's actually saving you is much harder to calculate. Obviously the beakers earlier are more valuable than the beakers later. But just based on raw beakers the comparison is not pretty.

 

[Becomedeath]

That's quite scary when it's written down! I genuinely thought I was giving myself a fairly good advantage by tiling GS's.

Gonna have to do the math again and do a pure science game methinks.

 

[snarzberry]

Yeah I always keep them for the series of bulbs at the end. You really don't want to come under nuclear attack as its hard to keep the little brainy suckers alive. You have to pay upkeep on them like other units, so that is in favour of planting, but it isn't really close and bulbing Is the way to go.