Early on, I build caravans to build wonders. I can build trade routes later, but a wonder is lost if you can't build it early. The only trade routes I build early are from my capitol(science city) preferably to an ai city on a different continent. After that I don't bother with routes within my own civ. The returns seem so meager until you get democracy. What do others do & why? Also, if you have a large city with colossus, is it better to send all caravans there for one big return, or to send it to a second city for two smaller returns?
when do you establish trade routes?
- Thread starter geofelt
- Start date
Old n Slow
Emperor
Im still average in this area, so my advice might be worth only three grains of salt. Im into wonders but havent taken the time or effort to measure the relative value compared to the time frame of the game. Most of my early caravans also go into wonders -- sometimes if I see the supply/demand with nice commodity situations, then Ill divert a caravan for trade purposes. The first winners are in/out of the SSC.
Once I have Col, (HG -- looking better at the higher levels, so Im working it into the Slow Strategy) & MPE, if a breathing space opens up Ill try to squeeze out 1-3 demanded camels from the SSC; local payoff are under-whelming, so Im looking for something safe & lucrative.
If re-homing of camels is used, the vast majority will be re-homed through the SSC, shipped over seas to some demanding civ (preferably on a boat chain by mid game.) Sporadically, some camels will be distributed locally, preferably form one far end of the rock to the other, but this is rare. Also by mid game, Ill ship a few in/out from the SSC to local sites for he ongoing arrows, but that is often done on a lower priority (with the thought that the ongoing arrows from the SSC will be larger than the soon to be conquered sites.)
Once the second round of wonders are in the hopper (Copes, KRC, Shakes, Mikes, Leos, Magellan, Isaacs, JSBs) Ill work to squeeze out demanded caravans -- seems to be a ratio of 3-4 go to wonders to 1 goes overseas for a great payoff. A couple of payoffs in the $400-$600 range is sufficient motivation to repeat said activity. The ongoing arrows are virtually ignored due to the urgency of getting the key wonders. The other pressures of growth are pushed too far back (both the number of cites and the infrastructure affecting the size of cities -- I have yet to balance this well) & the military is kept at minimum. Towards the end of the second round wonder list -- Ill start building up the existing cities & making more camels for trade -- about half may end up at the SSC with non demanded products just for the arrows -- Im still up in the air about this activity (probably should work to set up a true boat chain & a tech per turn trade effort.) The plan at this stage is to grow my core set of cities (say 10-20 or so) to reasonable size, build up a bankroll in time for Tactics & my active romp though my neighbors.
Once I have Col, (HG -- looking better at the higher levels, so Im working it into the Slow Strategy) & MPE, if a breathing space opens up Ill try to squeeze out 1-3 demanded camels from the SSC; local payoff are under-whelming, so Im looking for something safe & lucrative.
If re-homing of camels is used, the vast majority will be re-homed through the SSC, shipped over seas to some demanding civ (preferably on a boat chain by mid game.) Sporadically, some camels will be distributed locally, preferably form one far end of the rock to the other, but this is rare. Also by mid game, Ill ship a few in/out from the SSC to local sites for he ongoing arrows, but that is often done on a lower priority (with the thought that the ongoing arrows from the SSC will be larger than the soon to be conquered sites.)
Once the second round of wonders are in the hopper (Copes, KRC, Shakes, Mikes, Leos, Magellan, Isaacs, JSBs) Ill work to squeeze out demanded caravans -- seems to be a ratio of 3-4 go to wonders to 1 goes overseas for a great payoff. A couple of payoffs in the $400-$600 range is sufficient motivation to repeat said activity. The ongoing arrows are virtually ignored due to the urgency of getting the key wonders. The other pressures of growth are pushed too far back (both the number of cites and the infrastructure affecting the size of cities -- I have yet to balance this well) & the military is kept at minimum. Towards the end of the second round wonder list -- Ill start building up the existing cities & making more camels for trade -- about half may end up at the SSC with non demanded products just for the arrows -- Im still up in the air about this activity (probably should work to set up a true boat chain & a tech per turn trade effort.) The plan at this stage is to grow my core set of cities (say 10-20 or so) to reasonable size, build up a bankroll in time for Tactics & my active romp though my neighbors.
Terrapin
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2003
- Messages
- 505
Early on, I build no caravans. The only Wonder of the Ancient World worth building is the Great Library. You get that by building Literacy ASAP! (Never, Never, Never trade Literacy to an AI culture!) Of the others, only Hanging Gardens has lasting value. I focus on trade and research and build up to the higher economic, religeous and scientific technologies as fast as possible, largley ignoring the military and applied tachnologies (Pottery and Construction are the exceptions). This makes for a nice, coherent strategy. While you quickly build the important techs and get a jump on their associated Wonders (Medicine/Shakespeare's Theater, Invention/Leonardo's Workshop, Economics/Adam Smith's, also Gunpowder, Explosives and Industrialisation because of the units/improvements they allow), the Great Library fills in the military and applied technologies as they are discovered (or better yet traded) by other Civs. Except on Diety Level, a Republic/Democracy should be able to beat the AI civs to the Great Library and important Renaissance Wonders without wasting time on caravans.
For the mid to late game, my "old line" cities will have built every (worthwhile) improvement (Or at least the ones which are available). Then and only then do I start building caravans. Do not send them to other civilizations unless one is conveniently nearby and you need quick cash. The extra $$$ for longer trading routes is irrelevant. The important thing is the new trade arrows. The number of trade arrows will grow as your cities grow. These will keep your citizens happy, buff up your tax revenues and further accelerate your science. This is crucial for staying ahead in the science race. You will have to "back fill" one or two older technologies that the GL does not provide, but if you generate hundreds of beakers per turn ( and you should by the mid game) this will not slow you down much. By the late game, the "old line" cities will have lots of time to build caravans. Here is where I use them to help with Wonders, but only occasionally. Before the end of the game, try to fill out as many trade routes as possible. This will boost your score by making more of your citizens happy.
Without going to far into my preferred startegy, I will say that all this only works if you use a Republic/Democracy strategy and use the "We Love ... Day" effect to rapidly populate your cities. This means constantly fiddling with the Tax Rate, because you need to focus on Science on all but a few, strategically determined turns. Never turn up the luxuries unless you have at least three cities "ready to grow." If you are using a militaristic strategy, you do not build Wonders, you capture them.
For the mid to late game, my "old line" cities will have built every (worthwhile) improvement (Or at least the ones which are available). Then and only then do I start building caravans. Do not send them to other civilizations unless one is conveniently nearby and you need quick cash. The extra $$$ for longer trading routes is irrelevant. The important thing is the new trade arrows. The number of trade arrows will grow as your cities grow. These will keep your citizens happy, buff up your tax revenues and further accelerate your science. This is crucial for staying ahead in the science race. You will have to "back fill" one or two older technologies that the GL does not provide, but if you generate hundreds of beakers per turn ( and you should by the mid game) this will not slow you down much. By the late game, the "old line" cities will have lots of time to build caravans. Here is where I use them to help with Wonders, but only occasionally. Before the end of the game, try to fill out as many trade routes as possible. This will boost your score by making more of your citizens happy.
Without going to far into my preferred startegy, I will say that all this only works if you use a Republic/Democracy strategy and use the "We Love ... Day" effect to rapidly populate your cities. This means constantly fiddling with the Tax Rate, because you need to focus on Science on all but a few, strategically determined turns. Never turn up the luxuries unless you have at least three cities "ready to grow." If you are using a militaristic strategy, you do not build Wonders, you capture them.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Of course, if you create the trade routes first, it is much easier to achieve and sustain the celebrations and to have enough science that you don't need the GL. 
The answer is:it depends
If I'm going for space then routes need to be up ASAP.As soon as Trade is onboard,everything must stop in favor of caravans.I almost always start with internal trading despite the smaller returns(returns can be darn good with self trading).My SSC must have routes yesterday so to speak.The thing with internal trading is I can control the amount of trade arrows.I also get 2 routes instead of 1 with each camel.The ai tends not to focus on trade arrows and I rarely see it build superhighways and what not.So,over the course of the game,internal routes are more lucrative.Once a few internals are set up,then I'll start in on the foreign trade.Or better yet with an offshore colony which I'll build up with market,bank,"we love days" etc ASAP.
The gold brought in can be spent on rushing more camels and the cycle continues.The plan is to eventually have all my cities with 3 routes to my highest trade arrow city(usually SSC).Once that is done then trade will be almost exclusively foreign.
Once gold is plentiful,I'll just buy wonders outright,but before that,for wonders I'll purposely build food camels over commodities just so I won't be tempted to deliver them.
If I am a waring,then, if I bother with Trade at all,camels will go for wonders mainly but the odd one will be delivered overseas to boost the war fund(unit rushing,bribing)
If I'm going for space then routes need to be up ASAP.As soon as Trade is onboard,everything must stop in favor of caravans.I almost always start with internal trading despite the smaller returns(returns can be darn good with self trading).My SSC must have routes yesterday so to speak.The thing with internal trading is I can control the amount of trade arrows.I also get 2 routes instead of 1 with each camel.The ai tends not to focus on trade arrows and I rarely see it build superhighways and what not.So,over the course of the game,internal routes are more lucrative.Once a few internals are set up,then I'll start in on the foreign trade.Or better yet with an offshore colony which I'll build up with market,bank,"we love days" etc ASAP.
The gold brought in can be spent on rushing more camels and the cycle continues.The plan is to eventually have all my cities with 3 routes to my highest trade arrow city(usually SSC).Once that is done then trade will be almost exclusively foreign.
Once gold is plentiful,I'll just buy wonders outright,but before that,for wonders I'll purposely build food camels over commodities just so I won't be tempted to deliver them.
If I am a waring,then, if I bother with Trade at all,camels will go for wonders mainly but the odd one will be delivered overseas to boost the war fund(unit rushing,bribing)
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
I don't build caravans for trae routes until I need to build banks. The extra trade avoids a deficient. I build a mix of dips and caravans when I have nothing else to build.
Interesting, Smash: I almost completely opposite these days. I started out trading domestic only to avoid giving help to the AI, but then learned about the Trade formulas. Now I go overseas ASAP (Different Continent +100% vs Same Civ -50%), eventually moving domestic after RR and SuperHighways. The exception is when I can find an AI city on the continent with my SSC. Then it is three routes ASAP with critical-path road for higher-paying Trade Routes. The early offshore trade earns me more gold for RBing key infrastructure, as well as speeding up several techs needed for WLTCD growth of SSC.
To answer the original question, once I discover Trade (usually between 1500 and 1000BC, Deity level, no starting techs) every city switches to caravan-making. I hope to have 6 or 8 cities by then, which is enough to keep away the first unhappy citizen. I use Partial Rush Buying to pump out the caravans as fast as possible. If the SSC has not finished Colossus it gets an early caravan to finish it so it can start making its own caravans. The only other Wonder that gets early caravans is Marco Polo. If I am cursed with Pottery early I consider going for Hanging Gardens, but these days I avoid Pottery if possible: I hate Salt caravans with no place to deliver to. Everything I do early on is designed to pump up the SSC, whether it be making and delivering SSC caravans to the biggest AI cities nearby (I dont care about Bonus payoff for SSC: I want the ongoing Trade Routes ASAP), sending out other caravans for gold/beaker payoff to speed up RushBuying SSC infrastructure or WLTCD growth techs like Medicine and Sanitation, or reserving low-payoff caravans for earliest possible Shakespeares and Copernicus.
Midgame, if another civ has discovered MonoTheism I consider trading for the tech to build Mikes. Otherwise I'm usually only building Newtons (in SSC), Darwins, Hoover, SETI and Apollo. If the cities are constantly growing the commodities lists are usually changing every 16 turns or less, so I usually do not get all three commodities blocked for long. If they are I build Food caravans for future wonders or space ship parts. The only other units I try to build are Galleons or Transports to replace Triremes & Caravels before I switch to Democracy. I occasionally build Magellans, depending on the situation.
To answer the original question, once I discover Trade (usually between 1500 and 1000BC, Deity level, no starting techs) every city switches to caravan-making. I hope to have 6 or 8 cities by then, which is enough to keep away the first unhappy citizen. I use Partial Rush Buying to pump out the caravans as fast as possible. If the SSC has not finished Colossus it gets an early caravan to finish it so it can start making its own caravans. The only other Wonder that gets early caravans is Marco Polo. If I am cursed with Pottery early I consider going for Hanging Gardens, but these days I avoid Pottery if possible: I hate Salt caravans with no place to deliver to. Everything I do early on is designed to pump up the SSC, whether it be making and delivering SSC caravans to the biggest AI cities nearby (I dont care about Bonus payoff for SSC: I want the ongoing Trade Routes ASAP), sending out other caravans for gold/beaker payoff to speed up RushBuying SSC infrastructure or WLTCD growth techs like Medicine and Sanitation, or reserving low-payoff caravans for earliest possible Shakespeares and Copernicus.
Midgame, if another civ has discovered MonoTheism I consider trading for the tech to build Mikes. Otherwise I'm usually only building Newtons (in SSC), Darwins, Hoover, SETI and Apollo. If the cities are constantly growing the commodities lists are usually changing every 16 turns or less, so I usually do not get all three commodities blocked for long. If they are I build Food caravans for future wonders or space ship parts. The only other units I try to build are Galleons or Transports to replace Triremes & Caravels before I switch to Democracy. I occasionally build Magellans, depending on the situation.
GaryNemo
Settler from None
I am not one of the masters who have posted here, but since I work Caravans a bit differently I'll say what I do.
Not the Great Library
1. The trade bonus is nice, so I always deliver into Demand, at max trade arrows. The ongoing route arrows seem more important - they are like roads. I rehome Caravans freely to get the Demand to work between the cities I've selected.
2. I examine all cities each turn, and IPRB Caravans at 10,20,30 and 40 nearly always. If you are new to this, try my "Rule of 28". When a city is building 7 production, and it has completed 28, change to Diplomat or Archer (30), Rush Buy $4, then switch back to Caravan. That is what we mean by IPRB Incremental Partial Rush Buy: it saves an whole turn and is a very efficient use of $gold.
3. I play conquest, Emperor, and I build an SSC (Super Science City) with HG, Copernicus and Shakespeare etc, usually my Capital. All Trade routes go to or from that city, until later when I may establish a route directly between two other cities.
4. Once in Monarchy, I'll try to get one trade route going between my SSC and the next city that I'm favoring to grow. This is stress, because I'm desperate to build Wonders, racing the AI for Hanging Gardens. No trade route until that is done. At King Level, the Pyramids is the first Wonder.
5. I choose a city to favor, rename it with a $ such as Nottingham$ so I can see it on all the report screens. I work to get 3 trade routes there, then move on to the next favored city.
6. Once in Republic, the trade arrows are doubled and I'm enough ahead on Wonders to put progressively more effort into Trade Routes. In the current Gotm27, I've built 12 wonders at a cost of 5*4 + 5*6 +2*8 = 66 Caravans, and have 14 Trade routes going, 1460AD, so most effort has gone into Wonders.
7. If there is an AI city that is convenient, or if I'm suffering delay getting Science, I'll deliver into demand far away there. A ship chain is helpful. If they cancel the demand, I bring the Caravan back and use it for the next Wonder.
8. Some of the Civ2 Gotms were Fundy. In that case, Trade Demand delivery bonus is THE way to get Science.
Not the Great Library
1. The trade bonus is nice, so I always deliver into Demand, at max trade arrows. The ongoing route arrows seem more important - they are like roads. I rehome Caravans freely to get the Demand to work between the cities I've selected.
2. I examine all cities each turn, and IPRB Caravans at 10,20,30 and 40 nearly always. If you are new to this, try my "Rule of 28". When a city is building 7 production, and it has completed 28, change to Diplomat or Archer (30), Rush Buy $4, then switch back to Caravan. That is what we mean by IPRB Incremental Partial Rush Buy: it saves an whole turn and is a very efficient use of $gold.
3. I play conquest, Emperor, and I build an SSC (Super Science City) with HG, Copernicus and Shakespeare etc, usually my Capital. All Trade routes go to or from that city, until later when I may establish a route directly between two other cities.
4. Once in Monarchy, I'll try to get one trade route going between my SSC and the next city that I'm favoring to grow. This is stress, because I'm desperate to build Wonders, racing the AI for Hanging Gardens. No trade route until that is done. At King Level, the Pyramids is the first Wonder.
5. I choose a city to favor, rename it with a $ such as Nottingham$ so I can see it on all the report screens. I work to get 3 trade routes there, then move on to the next favored city.
6. Once in Republic, the trade arrows are doubled and I'm enough ahead on Wonders to put progressively more effort into Trade Routes. In the current Gotm27, I've built 12 wonders at a cost of 5*4 + 5*6 +2*8 = 66 Caravans, and have 14 Trade routes going, 1460AD, so most effort has gone into Wonders.
7. If there is an AI city that is convenient, or if I'm suffering delay getting Science, I'll deliver into demand far away there. A ship chain is helpful. If they cancel the demand, I bring the Caravan back and use it for the next Wonder.
8. Some of the Civ2 Gotms were Fundy. In that case, Trade Demand delivery bonus is THE way to get Science.
On your second question, trading with your own city suffers a 50% loss on the Delivery Bonus, and you lose the Off-Continent bonus of a further 100% if both cities are on the same "continent". You will get a slightly larger ongoing Trade Route benefit from the bigger city as that is based mostly on Base Trade arrows (trade from terrain like roads, rivers, ocean and specials). You should ask yourself what you are going for: a larger Delivery Bonus or a larger Trade Route? Here is a link for all the modifiers for Delivery Bonuses:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64729
Yes you are right in that you should setup foreign routes first.These should be about double an internal route early not to mention the higher one time payoff.But it takes alot more time to do.Then,later,replace them with routes to the SSC/Trade city after superhighways and such.That would be ideal.
This is why solo lands 1000 years or so before me
This is why solo lands 1000 years or so before me
Archer 007
Rebirth
What about the Colossus? Why is it not that important to you?
Archer 007
Rebirth
Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Of course, if you create the trade routes first, it is much easier to achieve and sustain the celebrations and to have enough science that you don't need the GL.
Exactly! The only reason to build the GL is to keep it away from the AI.
Archer 007
Rebirth
Doesnt being able to use these to their full purpose require gold, which mean either a lower science rate or high trade
Using Dips to bribe certainly requires gold, but embassies and sabotage don't. Not sure if you were referring to caravans in the same question; you only need gold if you are RushBuying them.
As to the original comment, the implication is that trade replaces Banks, but it is not so simple. Banks multiply trade distribution into Gold and Luxuries, and can be built quickly if unhappiness is breaking out. Getting trade routes up can take time unless they are domestic, in which case they are low paying until you have optimized RR connections and SuperHighways. I agree with building Dips and Caravans if nothing else (they require no support); I don't keep too many Dips around, rather I focus on Caravans.
As to the original comment, the implication is that trade replaces Banks, but it is not so simple. Banks multiply trade distribution into Gold and Luxuries, and can be built quickly if unhappiness is breaking out. Getting trade routes up can take time unless they are domestic, in which case they are low paying until you have optimized RR connections and SuperHighways. I agree with building Dips and Caravans if nothing else (they require no support); I don't keep too many Dips around, rather I focus on Caravans.
Ace
Emperor
It requires trade which generates taxes and lux as well as science. By using caravans and freight, you are increasing your trade arrows and the delivery payoff generates coins and beakers to push science. Like "its the economy, stupid".Originally posted by archer_007
Doesnt being able to use these to their full purpose require gold, which mean either a lower science rate or high trade
Archer 007
Rebirth
I know, Ace, i was being a wiseguy. I aint no dummy
Ace
Emperor
Originally posted by archer_007
I know, Ace, i was being a wiseguy. I aint no dummy
