[R&F] When playing as Japan, it seems like you are better off not building Samurai

[Leathaface]

When you get Military Tactics you can build both Samurai and Pikemen. The thing is Pikemen can upgrade into Pike & Shot, which has the same strength as Musketmen, is effective against Cavalry units and doesn't require any resources. Whereas Samurai upgrades to Musketman, but needs Niter to get that upgrade.

Plus in my games the AI seems to be fond of deploying Cavalry during wars, so this is another incentive to build Pike & Shots as they are anti-Cavalry. Musketmen don't seem particularly effective against them. (if you have Niter as Japan, otherwise Cavalry take out your Samurai easily)

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

When you get Military Tactics you can build both Samurai and Pikemen. The thing is Pikemen can upgrade into Pike & Shot, which has the same strength as Musketmen, is effective against Cavalry units and doesn't require any resources. Whereas Samurai upgrades to Musketman, but needs Niter to get that upgrade.

Plus in my games the AI seems to be fond of deploying Cavalry during wars, so this is another incentive to build Pike & Shots as they are anti-Cavalry. Musketmen don't seem particularly effective against them. (if you have Niter as Japan, otherwise Cavalry take out your Samurai easily)

Samurai cost 160, Pikemen cost 200.

Samurai have a base strength of 48, bumped to 58 when fighting Anti-Cav. Pikemen have a base strength of 45, bumped to 55 when fighting Light or Heavy Cavalry. So basically, in addition to being cheaper, Samurai are more effective against anything that isn't on one of the Cavalry lines.

Your first Samurai gives you Era score.​

 

[BenitoChavez]

I build them for the sound effects. *shwiing*

 

[Leathaface]

Samurai cost 160, Pikemen cost 200.

Samurai have a base strength of 48, bumped to 58 when fighting Anti-Cav. Pikemen have a base strength of 45, bumped to 55 when fighting Light or Heavy Cavalry. So basically, in addition to being cheaper, Samurai are more effective against anything that isn't on one of the Cavalry lines.

Your first Samurai gives you Era score.​

I just feel that the biggest threats from the AI come from Knight and then Cavalry. Regards fighting Anti-Cav, Archers can take care of Spearmen, Crossbowmen can beat Pikemen if they are in a safe position.

Plus i've rarely seen the AI send lots of Spearmen or Pikemen my way when declaring war.

 

[Naktis]

If you play as japan and dont build samurai...then you better play other leader..

 

[Leathaface]

If you play as japan and dont build samurai...then you better play other leader..

Japan has a top tier Civ Ability though, one of the very best.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The only reason why you'd build either is because you can't build knights. Samurai are cheaper and are better at taking cities. If you're not taking cities and are on the defensive, then I think you're probably better off building an encampment and two (especially with Japan!) and use GG+ Crossbow to block attacks. Better than going into Military Tactics and slowing down your tech.

As for Pike and Shot? Well, I'd focus on winning the war right now as opposed to upcoming ones.

 

[Leathaface]

^Could Crossbowmen stalked with a Great General really take Knights attacking them head on?

 

[Archon_Wing]

Not head on, but with encampments and in City Centers it would be fine.

This is of course assuming you have nothing better to fight them with.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

Samurai cost 160, Pikemen cost 200.

If it is based on efficient play (or "Competitive Gaming"), samurai is not cost less.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...spring-2018-patch.632252/page-3#post-15131332
The fact is, in the most efficient domination game, Japan doesn't use samurai at all, even after spring patch. Powerful knight and upgrade cost trick destroys the balance and immersion of the entire game.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

If it is based on efficient play (or "Competitive Gaming"), samurai is not cost less.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...spring-2018-patch.632252/page-3#post-15131332
The fact is, in the most efficient domination game, Japan doesn't use samurai at all, even after spring patch. Powerful knight and upgrade cost trick destroys the balance and immersion of the entire game.

True, but the original question was why should I build a Samurai when I could build a Pikeman instead, which implies a new hardbuild rather than an upgrade from an existing Spearman.

I just feel that the biggest threats from the AI come from Knight and then Cavalry. Regards fighting Anti-Cav, Archers can take care of Spearmen, Crossbowmen can beat Pikemen if they are in a safe position.

Plus i've rarely seen the AI send lots of Spearmen or Pikemen my way when declaring war.

Yes, if your main concern is defending against AI Knight/Cavalry attacks, that is what the Anti-Cavalry Line (Pikemen, Pike & Shot) is intended to do, and it should be better than Samurai for that purpose. Frankly, it should be a lot more better (wow, that's bad English) than it is now.

 

[GT_OKEZ]

Samarai are good as they are a solid medieval melee unit whereas most Civs have to wait for Muskets to compare. Samarai are a decent option if you lack Iron in your empire yet still require a strong unit at this point in the game. If you have Iron then Knights are more efficient. At least that's how I play. I don't build a strategy around Samarai (they cant be pre-built and come at an out of the way tech) but they are a nice option if needed and their sound effect is pretty awesome

 

[Archon_Wing]

True, but the original question was why should I build a Samurai when I could build a Pikeman instead, which implies a new hardbuild rather than an upgrade from an existing Spearman.

I suppose one could argue that merely by being in this situation, it was a mistake. If you see you have no iron, you could have built regular spears in advance and they'd also help you against horsemen.

Now, I don't really go above Emperor, but on the off times I've played IMM/Deity I know the AI can pull this advances very quickly, but aside from early attacks I really don't see the AI being a threat. At least nothing that can't be stopped by 1-2 encampments/wall and a lot of times I don't even have crossbows vs knights. I think going into Military Tactics if you don't want Samurai just seems like it'd slow your overall tech down and even make you less suited to fight back. But if you don't have resources, the Samurai would provide the most raw power if you want to go on the offensive. Though I suppose you'd still just want upgraded pikes.

 

[Leathaface]

True, but the original question was why should I build a Samurai when I could build a Pikeman instead, which implies a new hardbuild rather than an upgrade from an existing Spearman.

When I created this topic I didn't limit Pikemen to just hard building them, upgrading from a Spearman is in this discussion too.

 

[Pietato]

Pike and Shot are great units. Pikemen and Spearmen suck, though. So it is a question of whether you can get to Pike and Shot fast enough.

 

[Leathaface]

Pikemen can stand up to Knights though, from what I can see.

 

[Pietato]

I guess they are ok against badly controlled AI Knights. But they still have less strength at Deity, and they lose to ranged and melee. Also they cost more than Knights.

 

[LuckyAC]

Just a few Samurai with double melee bonus wreck Deity AI cities for a long period of time (don't need to be worry about them going obsolete in the middle of a war). Likely to have a GG as Japan, too, which makes them really invincible - soon they're at 4 movement, +13 strength, immune to injury. Pikeman aren't really useful for anything as far as I can tell. Crossbowmen are much more effective at defense, and by that time you have walls and Encampments up, so danger is minimal.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I keep them and turn them into corps and armies.

Generally I keep UUs and use them this way, upgrading perhaps when they're very obsolete.

The Samurai in particular acts at full strength in combat, right?! When you upgrade it you lose that buff. The only time I don't keep UUs around is when they don't have any special buff. E.g: War-Cart, Chariot Archer, Saka Horse Archer. Longship, etc.