Lonecat Nekophrodite
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2019
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When it comes to ranged. this is when 1UPT settings revealed its flaws as to represent Six Thousand Years timeframe in combat and stackings seemed to be more practical. This thread however focused on ranged, siege units, and firepower (gunpowder) units in game evolution path proposals.
Note that 'Technical Upgrade' concept as presented by @Boris Gudenuf kun should be implemented as well as augmentation options (think of 'upgrades' in normal RTS games like Warcraft series or Age of Empires series).. there are reasons.
But first. How combat mechanics should be?
This is one of the toughest questions whether should Archers and firepower units have ranged attacks in stacking options. in Civ3 however, only archers (and later longbowmen) can intercept 'passing' enemy and if a stack is attacked, this unit begins their action first before melee units made actual combat resolves. Is it still okay to have BOTH Ranged units and Firepower units doing this ranged inteceptions?
On to unit lists that should be there.
Ranged
0. Slinger
Should we implemented this unit as well?
1. Archers
This is actually one of the longest lasting units before advent of the first functional handguns (arquebus) in the waning days of 15th Century. Using Tech Upgrades (and again, Boris kun's quote)
2. Crossbowmen
Should we include this unit also? Regarding to the origins, this weapon shown up in BOTH Greece and China around the same time (500-200 BC). but only a preferred military weapons in East partucularly China since Zhou Dynasty Era and did not reach Europe until 10th Century AD (saw use in Battle of Hastings).
It didnt' become common until 14th Century due to Papacy ban on the use against fellow Christians.
One of crossbow advantages over bows is that it is much easier to learn, in weeks or months, rather than years or decades. Armies that made use of crossbowmen also preferred to have this unit being peasantry in origin (and thus mass conscriptions).
This unit began with wooden crossbows, Tech Upgrades would be steelsprings.
Firepower
1. Handgunners/ Arquebusiers / Musketeers
In stacking options. this should be 'ranged' unit as well, same short learning curve as crossbowmen.
REASONS. they aren't exactly melee troops, while their smoothbore guns were not so accurate (common arquebus has effective range of 50-100 meters) and low rate of fire. They're used as shooters en mass due to short learning curve and weapons cheapness (Compared to crossbows) as well as awesome AP against anyone wearing heaviest armor possible (which usually came from Second Estate), their shortcomings--low rate of fire--rendered them sorely vulnerable to fast chargers, particularly heavy cavalry (if bullet didn't punch through their armor or there are sufficient numbers of heavy cavalrymen survived withering volley, an array of handgunners will be easily trampled if not protected by either spearmen or pikemen) thus they were usually deployed behind defensive positions or grouped with pikemen....
Using stacking means 'Pike and Shotte' unit may not be neccessary since pikemen should not be upgradeable to this unit YET.... and historically there were expedients that these handgunners were not tagged along with pikemen.
- Janissary (Particularly in Battle of Mohacs, Hungarian knights did successfully charged Janissary array as shown in this video, a very reason not to deploy handgunners without pikemen)
- Japanese arquebusiers (either Ashigaru or 'Gun Samurai') in Battle of Nagashino, deployed behind palisades, rolling volley is used here against charging samurai cavalry (they're 'knights' in Japanese sense) to the great effect.
Note that Takeda's cavalry did use foggy weather to screen his horse as a hope to surprise Oda's arquebusiers, believing that the latter could neither reload fast enough nor orderly volley would stop their horses. Oda's officers must arouse his arquebusiers 'The enemy cavalry may ride with the fog but will not be able to pass through palisade'. Takeda's knights did try to get so close as if one could insert their lances through Oda's shooting slits, but to no avail. From this video the initial range of engagement must be about 25 meters away, and the final distance is a few paces away!
This feat is not possible in the opening. in this scene is one of a few instance that arquebusiers are deployed without pikemen defending them.
- Combined Ming and Joseon in Battle of Sarhu (1619). Ming and Joseon army adopted lessons learned from their victories over Japanese invaders several decades ago, focusing on firepower, AFAIK in the Imjin War both sides tend to use arquebusiers without proper pikemen protections because both sides did have very few cavalry, against Jurchen (later became Manchus) whom are horselords, this 'all shot' setting is ill suited since this enemy is very different, even properly managed deep volleys still incapable of stopping Jurchen cavalry charge
One of a baddest examples that without bayonets, musketeers always require pikemen to protect them.
Joseon did learn this lessons hard way though, and shortly after they added pikemen to the mix with somewhat better results against the same enemy, while not winning, Jurchens did suffer significant loss and they too learned a painful lessons 'never to take Koreans lightly' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_and_shot#Outside_of_Europe
- Mattias Corvinus's Black Legion of Hungary. In Civ6 this unit is represented as cavalry, while in truth it Matt emplasized on the use of handguns, his Black Legion also known to compose of the large amounts of handgunners, too many proportions of shottes and this put his army at risks of crushing defeat against charging horsemen.
In the Battle of Mohacs, several decades after his departure. Hungarians did learn to do Pike and Shotte, too bad they didn't organize sufficient amounts of cannons to meet Ottoman's standards.
2. Fusilier
The first universal infantry armed with flintlock musket that capable of mounting bayonet by muzzle end, Flintlocks are faster to reload and safer to use (Fusiliers were originally tasked guarding artillery / siege train and gunpowder supply convoy), this invention not only permitts more and more guns in one regiment and closely packed musketeer's formations, but also the end of pikes as active battlefield weapons. In Europe foot soldiers with flintlocks became a backbone to any army for about 150 years, through numerous wars and with uniform changes several times, their linear tactics didn't. not even after Munroe-effect rifled muskets (And hollow based conical bullets) were introduced, and so ofthen this unit was also referred to as 'Line Infantry' though the term was very recent (French Revolutionary Army invented this term to distinguish 'heavy hardcore foot soldiers' to 'lightweight skirmishers', despite this, both troops are equipped with the same fusils), even so they aren't neccessary fight in linear formations, even light companies were also required to line up when required.
Tech Upgrades Heavy
1. Socket Bayonet.
2. Iron Ramrod
3. Light Infantry Tactics
4. Conical bullets and rifled muskets (This will effectively made them 'riflemen')**
** All previous generation infantrymen upgrades to this.
3. Rifleman**
Can be considered redundant to Fusiliers . Originally begins as light infantry 'skirmishers'. Inventions of 'fast loading rifled muskets' of various solutions (Brunswick to Minie) now allows all foot soldiers to be equipped with rifles (and permits light infantry functions in one regiment). If this unit means ones with breechloading rifles, this can also be tech upgrade heavy.
1. Metal cartridges
2. Smokeless powder
3. Repeating Rifle
4. Regimental Machinegun
4. Infantry
Actually this unit can be a direct successor to Fusilier should tech upgrades from 'Rifleman' conferred to both. And they did last very long even to today!
1. Machinegun
2. Automatic Weapons
3. Hand Grenade
4. Assault Weapons
5. Assault Rifle
6. Antitank weaponry
7. Portable guided missiles.
8. Motorized transport
5. Mechanized Infantry. This time this unit should includes Panzergrenadier as well as Allied counterparts invented by Both Brits and Americans
Initial Equipment, Infantrymen with half track APC
1. Tracked APC
2. IFV
3. Air Portable Transport
6. Augmented Infantry. Near future footsoldiers in powered exoskeletal armor. Think of original Starship Troopers novel and OVA Anime.
- Drop pods
- Energy Weapons
Artillery (Or Siege if you wish)
1. Ballista. This is the only siege weapons towed along with marching troops as Roman Legion did. Medieval armies also did the same.
Tech Upgrades
- Steel Spring
- Gunpowder Warhead
2. Bombard. The First Hardcore Siege Unit that not being built on site, but rather must be shipped from workshops to the battlefield.
Tech Upgrades
- Barrel castings
- Trunions
3. Cannon. Includes both Tiller cannon and Trunion cannon
Tech Upgrades
- Trunion
- Elevation Screw
- Percussion shell
- Rifling
Innovations: Field Cannon Battery (Invented by Gustavus Adolphus, and this is awesome against Holy Roman Imperial troops.)
4. Howitzer. Originally siege weapons.
- Elevation Screw
- Percussion shell
- Rifling
5. Modern Artillery. Reverts back to Civ3 and 5 functions, TWO IN ONE artillery, to the point that 'Field' pieces (anything between 37mm-150mm) can double as siege weapons, having very long range to the point that it requires spotters with telecommunications to work.
- Inflatable rubber tires.
- Forward Observer.
- Armor Piercing rounds.
- Module Assembly.
6. Smart Artillery. The term includes BOTH Guided Missiles AND GPS Assisted gun howitzers that fires rocket assisted guided shells.
**Note that Both Fusiliers and Riflemen can be redundant (See https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ase-units-upgrade-trees.641983/#post-15374992
Actually Boris kun can add more details regarding to regular infantry tactics in the 'Age of Rifles' since American Civil War, Bismarkian Wars of German Unification (Strings of quick wars between Prussia and several neighbouring countries that Prussia never lost during the tenure of 1860-1870 and all of these involved the use of blackpowder infantry rifles as primary infantry weapons) Fusiliers getting couple more tech upgrades originally assigned to Rifleman also grant the same functions and firepower potentials.),
Actually I'm not sure if common Civ descriptions of 'Rifleman' an 'Line Infantry' actually applies regarding to the transitions from Linear volley towards squad based tactics commonly used by Light Infantry of 19th Century corrects?
- Rifleman entry in Civ5
civilization.fandom.com
civilization.fandom.com
Fusiliers can even have more technical upgrades and corresponding graphical changes-
- Begins with Malburian uniform (17th Century frock coat with or witout turnup tail, vest, either cocked broad brim black felt hat or tricorne, and cravat
- Through upgrades they can eventually have either Napoleonic looks or 1850s-1860s uniforms.
Grenadier isn't included because they regularly formed part of these firepower infantry units as flank companies in one regiment. hand grenade itself has always been CQB weapons used when assaulting cramped space an not broad battlefield. useful only in sieges but very redundant in open field battles since other companies in the same infantry regiment of the 17th-19th Century could do the same assaults even someone as lowly as Center Company fusiliers / musketeers (German states called center company 'musketeers', the name 'fusiliers' is reserved for light infantry companies of the same regiment deployed by the flank.)
Firepower unit evolution timelines.
---Cannon and Bombard ---> Handguners/Arquebusier---> Howitzer--> Fusilier ---> (Rifleman) ---> Infantry and Modern Artillery ----> Mechanized Infantry ----> Smart Artillery ---> Augmented Infantry.
What do you all think about these ranged unit lists with (limited) stacking options?
Note that 'Technical Upgrade' concept as presented by @Boris Gudenuf kun should be implemented as well as augmentation options (think of 'upgrades' in normal RTS games like Warcraft series or Age of Empires series).. there are reasons.
But first. How combat mechanics should be?
This is one of the toughest questions whether should Archers and firepower units have ranged attacks in stacking options. in Civ3 however, only archers (and later longbowmen) can intercept 'passing' enemy and if a stack is attacked, this unit begins their action first before melee units made actual combat resolves. Is it still okay to have BOTH Ranged units and Firepower units doing this ranged inteceptions?
On to unit lists that should be there.
Ranged
0. Slinger
Should we implemented this unit as well?
1. Archers
This is actually one of the longest lasting units before advent of the first functional handguns (arquebus) in the waning days of 15th Century. Using Tech Upgrades (and again, Boris kun's quote)
. This unit also signify the rise of warrior caste since archery is best trained at early childhood, practically just before a boy can walk, members of warrior caste trained them how to shoot basic arrows with bows. Also one of the hardest tech upgrade options particularly one archer may use either self bow (made of any elastic wood apiece, English longbow is one of the best examples since one was made of yew wood), or composite bow (Any pastoral peoples from Central Asia, this one is advantageous because of super elasticity compared to self bow and compact size and yet capable of launching an arrow with superior initial velocity compared to self bow of the same size, Central Asian horselords are heavily associated with this, or both (Japanese Yumi (弓) are usually made of bamboo and exists both self bows and composite bows, though composite Yumi can be as big as British Longbow, this because of laminated bamboo is less elastic than horns and sniews, (and too bad for Japanese, bamboo is much more common than materials to make Chinese style composite bows) the technical upgrades could have been focused on either trainings or other accessories (including armor)
2. Crossbowmen
Should we include this unit also? Regarding to the origins, this weapon shown up in BOTH Greece and China around the same time (500-200 BC). but only a preferred military weapons in East partucularly China since Zhou Dynasty Era and did not reach Europe until 10th Century AD (saw use in Battle of Hastings).
One of crossbow advantages over bows is that it is much easier to learn, in weeks or months, rather than years or decades. Armies that made use of crossbowmen also preferred to have this unit being peasantry in origin (and thus mass conscriptions).
This unit began with wooden crossbows, Tech Upgrades would be steelsprings.
Firepower
1. Handgunners/ Arquebusiers / Musketeers
In stacking options. this should be 'ranged' unit as well, same short learning curve as crossbowmen.
REASONS. they aren't exactly melee troops, while their smoothbore guns were not so accurate (common arquebus has effective range of 50-100 meters) and low rate of fire. They're used as shooters en mass due to short learning curve and weapons cheapness (Compared to crossbows) as well as awesome AP against anyone wearing heaviest armor possible (which usually came from Second Estate), their shortcomings--low rate of fire--rendered them sorely vulnerable to fast chargers, particularly heavy cavalry (if bullet didn't punch through their armor or there are sufficient numbers of heavy cavalrymen survived withering volley, an array of handgunners will be easily trampled if not protected by either spearmen or pikemen) thus they were usually deployed behind defensive positions or grouped with pikemen....
Using stacking means 'Pike and Shotte' unit may not be neccessary since pikemen should not be upgradeable to this unit YET.... and historically there were expedients that these handgunners were not tagged along with pikemen.
- Janissary (Particularly in Battle of Mohacs, Hungarian knights did successfully charged Janissary array as shown in this video, a very reason not to deploy handgunners without pikemen)
This feat is not possible in the opening. in this scene is one of a few instance that arquebusiers are deployed without pikemen defending them.
- Combined Ming and Joseon in Battle of Sarhu (1619). Ming and Joseon army adopted lessons learned from their victories over Japanese invaders several decades ago, focusing on firepower, AFAIK in the Imjin War both sides tend to use arquebusiers without proper pikemen protections because both sides did have very few cavalry, against Jurchen (later became Manchus) whom are horselords, this 'all shot' setting is ill suited since this enemy is very different, even properly managed deep volleys still incapable of stopping Jurchen cavalry charge
Joseon did learn this lessons hard way though, and shortly after they added pikemen to the mix with somewhat better results against the same enemy, while not winning, Jurchens did suffer significant loss and they too learned a painful lessons 'never to take Koreans lightly' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_and_shot#Outside_of_Europe
- Mattias Corvinus's Black Legion of Hungary. In Civ6 this unit is represented as cavalry, while in truth it Matt emplasized on the use of handguns, his Black Legion also known to compose of the large amounts of handgunners, too many proportions of shottes and this put his army at risks of crushing defeat against charging horsemen.
In the Battle of Mohacs, several decades after his departure. Hungarians did learn to do Pike and Shotte, too bad they didn't organize sufficient amounts of cannons to meet Ottoman's standards.
2. Fusilier
The first universal infantry armed with flintlock musket that capable of mounting bayonet by muzzle end, Flintlocks are faster to reload and safer to use (Fusiliers were originally tasked guarding artillery / siege train and gunpowder supply convoy), this invention not only permitts more and more guns in one regiment and closely packed musketeer's formations, but also the end of pikes as active battlefield weapons. In Europe foot soldiers with flintlocks became a backbone to any army for about 150 years, through numerous wars and with uniform changes several times, their linear tactics didn't. not even after Munroe-effect rifled muskets (And hollow based conical bullets) were introduced, and so ofthen this unit was also referred to as 'Line Infantry' though the term was very recent (French Revolutionary Army invented this term to distinguish 'heavy hardcore foot soldiers' to 'lightweight skirmishers', despite this, both troops are equipped with the same fusils), even so they aren't neccessary fight in linear formations, even light companies were also required to line up when required.
Tech Upgrades Heavy
1. Socket Bayonet.
2. Iron Ramrod
3. Light Infantry Tactics
4. Conical bullets and rifled muskets (This will effectively made them 'riflemen')**
** All previous generation infantrymen upgrades to this.
3. Rifleman**
Can be considered redundant to Fusiliers . Originally begins as light infantry 'skirmishers'. Inventions of 'fast loading rifled muskets' of various solutions (Brunswick to Minie) now allows all foot soldiers to be equipped with rifles (and permits light infantry functions in one regiment). If this unit means ones with breechloading rifles, this can also be tech upgrade heavy.
1. Metal cartridges
2. Smokeless powder
3. Repeating Rifle
4. Regimental Machinegun
4. Infantry
Actually this unit can be a direct successor to Fusilier should tech upgrades from 'Rifleman' conferred to both. And they did last very long even to today!
1. Machinegun
2. Automatic Weapons
3. Hand Grenade
4. Assault Weapons
5. Assault Rifle
6. Antitank weaponry
7. Portable guided missiles.
8. Motorized transport
5. Mechanized Infantry. This time this unit should includes Panzergrenadier as well as Allied counterparts invented by Both Brits and Americans
Initial Equipment, Infantrymen with half track APC
1. Tracked APC
2. IFV
3. Air Portable Transport
6. Augmented Infantry. Near future footsoldiers in powered exoskeletal armor. Think of original Starship Troopers novel and OVA Anime.
- Drop pods
- Energy Weapons
Artillery (Or Siege if you wish)
1. Ballista. This is the only siege weapons towed along with marching troops as Roman Legion did. Medieval armies also did the same.
Tech Upgrades
- Steel Spring
- Gunpowder Warhead
2. Bombard. The First Hardcore Siege Unit that not being built on site, but rather must be shipped from workshops to the battlefield.
Tech Upgrades
- Barrel castings
- Trunions
3. Cannon. Includes both Tiller cannon and Trunion cannon
Tech Upgrades
- Trunion
- Elevation Screw
- Percussion shell
- Rifling
Innovations: Field Cannon Battery (Invented by Gustavus Adolphus, and this is awesome against Holy Roman Imperial troops.)
4. Howitzer. Originally siege weapons.
- Elevation Screw
- Percussion shell
- Rifling
5. Modern Artillery. Reverts back to Civ3 and 5 functions, TWO IN ONE artillery, to the point that 'Field' pieces (anything between 37mm-150mm) can double as siege weapons, having very long range to the point that it requires spotters with telecommunications to work.
- Inflatable rubber tires.
- Forward Observer.
- Armor Piercing rounds.
- Module Assembly.
6. Smart Artillery. The term includes BOTH Guided Missiles AND GPS Assisted gun howitzers that fires rocket assisted guided shells.
**Note that Both Fusiliers and Riflemen can be redundant (See https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ase-units-upgrade-trees.641983/#post-15374992
Actually Boris kun can add more details regarding to regular infantry tactics in the 'Age of Rifles' since American Civil War, Bismarkian Wars of German Unification (Strings of quick wars between Prussia and several neighbouring countries that Prussia never lost during the tenure of 1860-1870 and all of these involved the use of blackpowder infantry rifles as primary infantry weapons) Fusiliers getting couple more tech upgrades originally assigned to Rifleman also grant the same functions and firepower potentials.),
Actually I'm not sure if common Civ descriptions of 'Rifleman' an 'Line Infantry' actually applies regarding to the transitions from Linear volley towards squad based tactics commonly used by Light Infantry of 19th Century corrects?
- Rifleman entry in Civ5
Rifleman (Civ5)
Back to the list of units Strong, front-line unit of the Industrial Era. Upgrades from the Musketman (and the Longswordsman in vanilla Civilization V only). The Rifleman is the result of a significant upgrade in small firearms technology during the late Renaissance/early Industrial Era. The...
- Line Infantry entry in Civ6
Line Infantry (Civ6)
Back to the list of units The Line Infantry is an Industrial Era melee unit in Civilization VI, introduced in the April 2021 Update. It upgrades from the Musketman (or its replacements) and requires Niter. In the Gathering Storm expansion, the Line Infantry requires 20 Niter to train...
Fusiliers can even have more technical upgrades and corresponding graphical changes-
- Begins with Malburian uniform (17th Century frock coat with or witout turnup tail, vest, either cocked broad brim black felt hat or tricorne, and cravat
- Through upgrades they can eventually have either Napoleonic looks or 1850s-1860s uniforms.
Grenadier isn't included because they regularly formed part of these firepower infantry units as flank companies in one regiment. hand grenade itself has always been CQB weapons used when assaulting cramped space an not broad battlefield. useful only in sieges but very redundant in open field battles since other companies in the same infantry regiment of the 17th-19th Century could do the same assaults even someone as lowly as Center Company fusiliers / musketeers (German states called center company 'musketeers', the name 'fusiliers' is reserved for light infantry companies of the same regiment deployed by the flank.)
Firepower unit evolution timelines.
---Cannon and Bombard ---> Handguners/Arquebusier---> Howitzer--> Fusilier ---> (Rifleman) ---> Infantry and Modern Artillery ----> Mechanized Infantry ----> Smart Artillery ---> Augmented Infantry.
What do you all think about these ranged unit lists with (limited) stacking options?
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